godsgopher
Mongoose
A very informative afternoon thank you Jean for taking so much time to set us straight, there are many here who will no doubt be helping Matt and LBH to catch these things we would otherwise have missed has you not let us know.
A New Universe for ACTA's
- Thread starter godsgopher
- Start date
Greg Smith
Mongoose
BFalcon said:Right back at ya
Greg Smith said:
Someone mentioned the long reload times possibly meaning that they only get to fire once per game (the idea being that it'll save on recording 3 turns and not just every other turn like "Slow Loading" weapons). Apologies if this isn't the case.
Ah I see. It could make Romulans boring to play. Cloak, cloak, cloak, decloak, FIRE!, flee...
Greg Smith said:
If the Klingon ship lost too many security stations, the subservient crew (usually from conquered Klingon worlds, much like the Romans had), would have a chance of rising up and taking over the ship. [/quote]
Interesting.
Probably too early. But I suspect if enough people want them, they will turn up eventually.
And thanks for the answers, Mr Smith.
My pleaseure.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Godsgopher, it was my pleasure. These are the issues we deal with each day and explaining them before they become a problem is far better than trying to fix the problem after. Lest anyone think I am slacking today instead of reading the zillions of Traveller books, I'm fighting my typical post-Origins cold/sore throat combo (too little sleep, too much junk food, lots of people contact = lower immune system) and can't focus enough to do a good job of absorbing new things.
So hanging out with you guys seemed like a Good Thing and made me happy.
godsgopher
Mongoose
Little Kid: "Look mommy Gamers!"
Mother: "Oh don't touch them Timmy, their filthy have stinky armpits and carry diseases!"
Mother: "Oh don't touch them Timmy, their filthy have stinky armpits and carry diseases!"
Keeper Nilbog
Mongoose
Ah I see. It could make Romulans boring to play. Cloak, cloak, cloak, decloak, FIRE!, flee...
Standard Romulan tactic, especially for the older model ships, though more likely to be along the line of :-
Cloak (load), Cloak (Load-hold), Cloak, Decloak, FIRE ! (watch enemy ship panic as HUGE plasma Trop distroys around half there ship), Flee - either recloaking or reloading (or both),
REPEAT til you or enemy dead
Standard Romulan tactic, especially for the older model ships, though more likely to be along the line of :-
Cloak (load), Cloak (Load-hold), Cloak, Decloak, FIRE ! (watch enemy ship panic as HUGE plasma Trop distroys around half there ship), Flee - either recloaking or reloading (or both),
REPEAT til you or enemy dead
Iron Domokun
Mongoose
I see a number of posters getting hung up on the number of turns it takes to load plasma... there is absolutely no reason that a turn in AcTA: SF has to be the same length of time as a turn in SFB/FC . As long as the game feels right and the results of battles are consistent across game engines, it's all good.
Ok just for conversation here, Mongoose will do what it must to make ACTA:SF work and no one is doubting that. But lets see why so many people are assuming that Plasma will have a longer load time than a Photon. Let's just compare Max damage here;
Romulan WE has 1 R torpedo for 50 points 2 F torpedoes at 20 apiece for 90 points of damage.
Romulan Firehawk has 2 S torpedoes at 30 apiece and 2 F torpedoes at 20 apiece for 100 points of damage.
Federation Heavy Cruiser have 4 Photons at 8 apiece or 16 if fully overloaded for 32 standard loaded or 64 fully over loaded.
With this kind of damage curve do you really want to see them take the same amount of time to load?
Note: Saving this while I check my numbers it is really late here.
Romulan WE has 1 R torpedo for 50 points 2 F torpedoes at 20 apiece for 90 points of damage.
Romulan Firehawk has 2 S torpedoes at 30 apiece and 2 F torpedoes at 20 apiece for 100 points of damage.
Federation Heavy Cruiser have 4 Photons at 8 apiece or 16 if fully overloaded for 32 standard loaded or 64 fully over loaded.
With this kind of damage curve do you really want to see them take the same amount of time to load?
Note: Saving this while I check my numbers it is really late here.
Yes the larger launchers (Type R, S, & G) could be fast loaded with a type F torpedo inthe same amount of time a Photon could be armed.
And yeah my math above is correct. The thing to Big Plasma was like Fighters they are suppose to scare the heck out of you. Romulans had weaker ships and could cloak, the Gorn are more like Rocky Balboa, they could take a serious pounding.
And yeah my math above is correct. The thing to Big Plasma was like Fighters they are suppose to scare the heck out of you. Romulans had weaker ships and could cloak, the Gorn are more like Rocky Balboa, they could take a serious pounding.
godsgopher
Mongoose
Yep if I remember right Romulan ships are a tad under-gunned. And those dreaded plasma torpedoes aren't exactly a long range wonder weapon. Hence the cloaking device, which allowed them to get within effective engagement range. As well as getting out of position when the enemy moves into a blind spot.
Agreed on the damage - Plasma Rs are fearsome weapons and the cloak made them so they could be deployed at close range, basically defining the whole tactics range of the Romulan fleet...
My favourite was to have half my fleet decloak and lob off a few Plasmas from one direction and have the other half waiting to lob off a few more in the other after the enemy fleet had turned to open the distance, meaning that they were practically flying towards the second batch... (for the non-SFB (and presumably FC was the same, Plasma torps decrease in power with range, but Romulan ships are risky to decloak close to enemy ships because of low defensive strength, so you need to judge it just right - too close and you invite a full spread of overloaded photons or disruptors, too far and they have the chance to turn and keep ahead of the torpedo for a few phases, meaning that they'll be less effective). Just to point out that Torpedos are also the fastest "ship" in the game, able to outrun anything else, eventually, so it's more a case, if deployed correctly, of *when* you'll be hit, not *if*.
I know that Mongoose will do their best - I'm just discussing the possibilities (partly because I'm excited about this).
My favourite was to have half my fleet decloak and lob off a few Plasmas from one direction and have the other half waiting to lob off a few more in the other after the enemy fleet had turned to open the distance, meaning that they were practically flying towards the second batch... (for the non-SFB (and presumably FC was the same, Plasma torps decrease in power with range, but Romulan ships are risky to decloak close to enemy ships because of low defensive strength, so you need to judge it just right - too close and you invite a full spread of overloaded photons or disruptors, too far and they have the chance to turn and keep ahead of the torpedo for a few phases, meaning that they'll be less effective). Just to point out that Torpedos are also the fastest "ship" in the game, able to outrun anything else, eventually, so it's more a case, if deployed correctly, of *when* you'll be hit, not *if*.
I know that Mongoose will do their best - I'm just discussing the possibilities (partly because I'm excited about this).
Rambler said:
Thing to point out also: Under SFB rules, that 50 points was a automatic hit, so you had to try to open the range to decrease it - a suicide launch at close, head on, range was pretty devastating to both sides. The Photons and Distruptors had a chance of missing, didn't they? (Incidently, Phasers, for those who didn't know did variable damage and got weaker at range and these ranges varied on the phaser type - but we almost guaranteed to hit for at least a little damage).
Best place used to be directly behind a slow-moving Fed CA and at close range - the Fed CA doesn't have (unless refitted) a rear-facing phaser, so if you're directly behind, he can't shoot back and there are acceleration rules...
Rambler: perhaps, for those not familiar with SFB and FC, you'd like to detail, briefly, what each race is like to play and their strengths and weaknesses? I only played with the basic Commander's rules, although I subsequently bought the later rules, I'd stopped playing by then, so could only so the basic half-dozen or so...
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Matt has some ACTA SF design stuff in his blog: http://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/2011/07/03/star-trekkin/
Sounds good, Greg, thanks...
Still a little concerned re: cloaks... your enemy getting his weak shield away from your cloaked ship was very hard to do in the hidden movement systems, but having a model on the map to show the location, means that those weak shields will always be pointing away now...
Just want to clear one thing up though - the majority of the SFB players won't be grumbling much (if at all) about the lack of record-keeping and power-allocation sheets if the general feel of the game is there... so as long as certain things are in there in some approximate form, I can't see too many being upset (there's always one rules lawyer who will cry about it), even if it means adapting tactics.
One thought - One company had, many years ago, bases with rotating cards to keep track of shields in their Titans game (I think we all know who), something that another well-known company later adopted for hero-based games... if you need to keep track of reloading times, you could always use a similar idea for reloading (Fired, 1, 2, 3, Held) either on the bases or in a "console"? It'd also work for remembering which ships fired their disruptors or photons and when? Just a wild thought that occurred to me just now - feel free to disregard.
I'm glad to hear that drones and plasmas are going to continue chasing Fed FFs and DDs around the map... it's one of the best ways to deal with them. :twisted:
A little unsure about the phasers being weakened - those tend to be the primary damage-dealers on Fed ships with the Photons being the "suckerpunch" in an engagement since they're slow-loading - does Matt mean from the previous testing values?
The Disruptors being ship-killing in a single volley was a little... worrying... though. :lol:
One other thought occurred to me too - shield reinforcement - is it still likely to be possible? I can't see how without power allocation, so will we see stronger shields as a result?
(Note for non-SFB players: Spare energy used to be allowed as reinforcement on shields, either generally (weak) or specific (stronger) with the 6 shields corresponding to the 6 sides of the hex. This reinforcement was taken off before any permanent shield damage took place. Specific reinforcement wasn't allowed after the last shield box was removed, only general, so protecting weak shields was critical).
Matt: any chance of a super-streamlined version of the ACTA rules so we can see how they normally flow? It might help us non-ACTA players from upsetting anyone accidently through ignorance.
Still a little concerned re: cloaks... your enemy getting his weak shield away from your cloaked ship was very hard to do in the hidden movement systems, but having a model on the map to show the location, means that those weak shields will always be pointing away now...
Just want to clear one thing up though - the majority of the SFB players won't be grumbling much (if at all) about the lack of record-keeping and power-allocation sheets if the general feel of the game is there... so as long as certain things are in there in some approximate form, I can't see too many being upset (there's always one rules lawyer who will cry about it), even if it means adapting tactics.
One thought - One company had, many years ago, bases with rotating cards to keep track of shields in their Titans game (I think we all know who), something that another well-known company later adopted for hero-based games... if you need to keep track of reloading times, you could always use a similar idea for reloading (Fired, 1, 2, 3, Held) either on the bases or in a "console"? It'd also work for remembering which ships fired their disruptors or photons and when? Just a wild thought that occurred to me just now - feel free to disregard.
I'm glad to hear that drones and plasmas are going to continue chasing Fed FFs and DDs around the map... it's one of the best ways to deal with them. :twisted:
A little unsure about the phasers being weakened - those tend to be the primary damage-dealers on Fed ships with the Photons being the "suckerpunch" in an engagement since they're slow-loading - does Matt mean from the previous testing values?
The Disruptors being ship-killing in a single volley was a little... worrying... though. :lol:
One other thought occurred to me too - shield reinforcement - is it still likely to be possible? I can't see how without power allocation, so will we see stronger shields as a result?
(Note for non-SFB players: Spare energy used to be allowed as reinforcement on shields, either generally (weak) or specific (stronger) with the 6 shields corresponding to the 6 sides of the hex. This reinforcement was taken off before any permanent shield damage took place. Specific reinforcement wasn't allowed after the last shield box was removed, only general, so protecting weak shields was critical).
Matt: any chance of a super-streamlined version of the ACTA rules so we can see how they normally flow? It might help us non-ACTA players from upsetting anyone accidently through ignorance.
Sounds good, Greg, thanks...
Still a little concerned re: cloaks... your enemy getting his weak shield away from your cloaked ship was very hard to do in the hidden movement systems, but having a model on the map to show the location, means that those weak shields will always be pointing away now...
It sounds basically the same system as the Eldar in BFG against torps etc so they get a 4+ save (or the appropriate Stealth value) probably 3+ or 2+ I an guessing otherwise cloaking is a little weak.
Also I have not heard anything about shields having facings etc - previous ACTA shields have been one value for the whole ships defensive system, but could be wrong?
One thought - One company had, many years ago, bases with rotating cards to keep track of shields in their Titans game (I think we all know who), something that another well-known company later adopted for hero-based games... if you need to keep track of reloading times, you could always use a similar idea for reloading (Fired, 1, 2, 3, Held) either on the bases or in a "console"? It'd also work for remembering which ships fired their disruptors or photons and when? Just a wild thought that occurred to me just now - feel free to disregard.
I think the primary problem is not the tracking reloads (although thats not ideal) but that two turns of not firing your ship may mean your ship is ashes.......
I'm glad to hear that drones and plasmas are going to continue chasing Fed FFs and DDs around the map... it's one of the best ways to deal with them. :twisted:
Ah - I don't think VAS works like that - but don't have the rules - perhaps someone can let us know how it does work?
One other thought occurred to me too - shield reinforcement - is it still likely to be possible? I can't see how without power allocation, so will we see stronger shields as a result?
Likely (from previous postings) to be a Special Action so that rather than do something else cool you will pump power to your shields
Still a little concerned re: cloaks... your enemy getting his weak shield away from your cloaked ship was very hard to do in the hidden movement systems, but having a model on the map to show the location, means that those weak shields will always be pointing away now...
It sounds basically the same system as the Eldar in BFG against torps etc so they get a 4+ save (or the appropriate Stealth value) probably 3+ or 2+ I an guessing otherwise cloaking is a little weak.
Also I have not heard anything about shields having facings etc - previous ACTA shields have been one value for the whole ships defensive system, but could be wrong?
One thought - One company had, many years ago, bases with rotating cards to keep track of shields in their Titans game (I think we all know who), something that another well-known company later adopted for hero-based games... if you need to keep track of reloading times, you could always use a similar idea for reloading (Fired, 1, 2, 3, Held) either on the bases or in a "console"? It'd also work for remembering which ships fired their disruptors or photons and when? Just a wild thought that occurred to me just now - feel free to disregard.
I think the primary problem is not the tracking reloads (although thats not ideal) but that two turns of not firing your ship may mean your ship is ashes.......
I'm glad to hear that drones and plasmas are going to continue chasing Fed FFs and DDs around the map... it's one of the best ways to deal with them. :twisted:
Ah - I don't think VAS works like that - but don't have the rules - perhaps someone can let us know how it does work?
One other thought occurred to me too - shield reinforcement - is it still likely to be possible? I can't see how without power allocation, so will we see stronger shields as a result?
Likely (from previous postings) to be a Special Action so that rather than do something else cool you will pump power to your shields
Greg Smith
Mongoose
BFalcon said:
The defence against shooting isn't the only part of the cloaking rules....
Also there isn't any facing in ACTA shields. Mostly.
I assume he means form previous testing.
Boosting shields is possible, at the expense of other stuff. Special actions in ACTA work like that.
Examples from B5: All power to engines: move 50% extra, but don't turn. Concentrate firepower: reroll misses, but only choose one target.
Greg, Boss: thanks guys - firstly for not flaming, but also for helping me to understand the ACTA rules.
Re: facing - that'll spoil one aspect of the SFB game, but should make it lighter on record keeping... it used to be fun trying to attack an enemy ship with your #1 shield (the forward facing shield) either down or severely weakened... usually trying desperately to keep it facing away enough to stop it being targetted or trying to "turn into" your opponent to prevent him being able to shoot at it for too long (and unload your overloaded photons at him in the process)...
I'm sure I'll find another ACTA strength to make it just as much fun though.
Re: shield boosting, it sounds like it'll be a more simplfied method much along the original SFB lines - with only so much power, you tended to allocate enough power to weapons to recharge your multi-turn-recharge weapons, possibly recharge the phasers so you could snipe a little, pay for your movement (and essential systems) and dump anything left over into the shields to soak some damage while you maneuvered... obviously there were exceptions and complications, but that's how it kinda used to end up.
Two turns of reloads used to be primarily a problem with the plasmas (I can't remember any others) and mostly they were used by the Romulans and the Gorns, if I recall - the Romulans hid away while reloading and the Gorn ships were made of solid metal - or so it seemed sometimes... you could pound them and they'd still keep coming.
If someone does have the VAS (what does VAS stand for anyhow?) rules, please do let us know where Matt's mind is headed?
The big problem with reload times is that disruptors are weaker than photons, while Plasmas are a lot more powerful, so the reload times were balanced accordingly... I think that will be one of the biggest challenges with ACTA: SFU, getting that balance right.
Re: facing - that'll spoil one aspect of the SFB game, but should make it lighter on record keeping... it used to be fun trying to attack an enemy ship with your #1 shield (the forward facing shield) either down or severely weakened... usually trying desperately to keep it facing away enough to stop it being targetted or trying to "turn into" your opponent to prevent him being able to shoot at it for too long (and unload your overloaded photons at him in the process)...
I'm sure I'll find another ACTA strength to make it just as much fun though.
Re: shield boosting, it sounds like it'll be a more simplfied method much along the original SFB lines - with only so much power, you tended to allocate enough power to weapons to recharge your multi-turn-recharge weapons, possibly recharge the phasers so you could snipe a little, pay for your movement (and essential systems) and dump anything left over into the shields to soak some damage while you maneuvered... obviously there were exceptions and complications, but that's how it kinda used to end up.
Two turns of reloads used to be primarily a problem with the plasmas (I can't remember any others) and mostly they were used by the Romulans and the Gorns, if I recall - the Romulans hid away while reloading and the Gorn ships were made of solid metal - or so it seemed sometimes... you could pound them and they'd still keep coming.
If someone does have the VAS (what does VAS stand for anyhow?) rules, please do let us know where Matt's mind is headed?
The big problem with reload times is that disruptors are weaker than photons, while Plasmas are a lot more powerful, so the reload times were balanced accordingly... I think that will be one of the biggest challenges with ACTA: SFU, getting that balance right.
Greg, Boss: thanks guys - firstly for not flaming, but also for helping me to understand the ACTA rules.
No worries - we are mostly fairly relaxed here - at least compared to some other forums I visit.
Re: facing - that'll spoil one aspect of the SFB game, but should make it lighter on record keeping... it used to be fun trying to attack an enemy ship with your #1 shield (the forward facing shield) either down or severely weakened... usually trying desperately to keep it facing away enough to stop it being targetted or trying to "turn into" your opponent to prevent him being able to shoot at it for too long (and unload your overloaded photons at him in the process)...
I'm sure I'll find another ACTA strength to make it just as much fun though.
hopefully
Re: shield boosting, it sounds like it'll be a more simplfied method much along the original SFB lines -
As Greg says its normally get soemthing cool at expnse of speed, weapons, turns etc - quick, easy and evocative
Two turns of reloads used to be primarily a problem with the plasmas (I can't remember any others) and mostly they were used by the Romulans and the Gorns, if I recall - the Romulans hid away while reloading and the Gorn ships were made of solid metal - or so it seemed sometimes... you could pound them and they'd still keep coming.
If someone does have the VAS (what does VAS stand for anyhow?) rules, please do let us know where Matt's mind is headed?
Victory at Sea - MGP game of WWII naval battles (expanded to incororate other eras)
Seconded - althouhg I think its just they are moved to the target and hit in the end phase - allowing defensive fire at them
The big problem with reload times is that disruptors are weaker than photons, while Plasmas are a lot more powerful, so the reload times were balanced accordingly... I think that will be one of the biggest challenges with ACTA: SFU, getting that balance right.[/quote]
Very likely - although I think Cloaking will the other biggie? The other aspect is that if the VAS rules are used, then I guess the difference will be photons and disruptors are direct fire whilst Plasma are seeking and hence can be shot at?
No worries - we are mostly fairly relaxed here - at least compared to some other forums I visit.
Re: facing - that'll spoil one aspect of the SFB game, but should make it lighter on record keeping... it used to be fun trying to attack an enemy ship with your #1 shield (the forward facing shield) either down or severely weakened... usually trying desperately to keep it facing away enough to stop it being targetted or trying to "turn into" your opponent to prevent him being able to shoot at it for too long (and unload your overloaded photons at him in the process)...
I'm sure I'll find another ACTA strength to make it just as much fun though.
hopefully
Re: shield boosting, it sounds like it'll be a more simplfied method much along the original SFB lines -
As Greg says its normally get soemthing cool at expnse of speed, weapons, turns etc - quick, easy and evocative
Two turns of reloads used to be primarily a problem with the plasmas (I can't remember any others) and mostly they were used by the Romulans and the Gorns, if I recall - the Romulans hid away while reloading and the Gorn ships were made of solid metal - or so it seemed sometimes... you could pound them and they'd still keep coming.
If someone does have the VAS (what does VAS stand for anyhow?) rules, please do let us know where Matt's mind is headed?
Victory at Sea - MGP game of WWII naval battles (expanded to incororate other eras)
Seconded - althouhg I think its just they are moved to the target and hit in the end phase - allowing defensive fire at them
The big problem with reload times is that disruptors are weaker than photons, while Plasmas are a lot more powerful, so the reload times were balanced accordingly... I think that will be one of the biggest challenges with ACTA: SFU, getting that balance right.[/quote]
Very likely - although I think Cloaking will the other biggie? The other aspect is that if the VAS rules are used, then I guess the difference will be photons and disruptors are direct fire whilst Plasma are seeking and hence can be shot at?
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