A Melting Pot of Tastes

[PrinceYyrkoon]

So you consider Scotland to be in the south of the Island? Again, interesting.

No. Of course, if you dont have much grounding in ancient history, you may conclude that the Picts were an ancient equivalent of the Scots, which would also be wrong.

 

[zozotroll]

Of course they are not Scots. But they largely occupied the same dirt that is now called Scotland. Or scotchland for underinformed Americans.

But that doesnt change that the Picts of REH are apperently a hunter/gatherer society with a nation in arms bunch of warriors. RW Picts tended grains and veggies along with herding pigs goats cow and horses. Rather than an armed citizenry, they had a specific warrior class, many of whom seem to have fought mounted on horses, if thier own artwork is to be believed.

Unfortunetly, we dont have any samples of thier writing beyond palce and personal names. These indicate they used a form of Celtic language, with words from other places mixed in.

yea back in the dawn of time, when I went to college, there was some debate as to whether the Picts had been wiped out, or merged into what later became the Scots. The wipe out thoery seems to hav died out since then.

And no I dont believe any people + any other people. Only uninformed or racist bungs believe in "purity". Anybody who has read much history at all quickly realizes what a mixture everybody is.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Well, if you consider it an assumption that, if Howard placed a 'white Amerind culture' on the west coast of his fantasy version of the Eurasian continent, I would conclude, as would, I am sure, any anthropologist, that Howards invention defies logic. I would conclude too, that he was a poor creative force.

Still waiting for evidence to contradict what I offered. Surely if your stance is the correct one, there would be such evidence. Do you have evidence that REH was trying to create a world which would satisfy an anthropologist?

I conclude that a number of people have read fringe articles and letters, ignoring more mainstream sources, to extrapolate the existence of a cookie-cutter culture of American Indians on the coast of the Hyborian Kingdoms which defies any kind of anthropological sense and consistency.

Again, we call that evidence. And The Black Stranger (also known as The Treasure of Tranicos) is hardly a fringe article or letter, and is rather mainstream, having been published alongside the Conan stories since the days of Gnome Press (Tales of Conan, which includes Treasure of Tranicos, was published in 1955), including comic book adaptations, presentation in the Ace/Lancer collections, and presentations in the Gollantz editions and the Ballantine/Del Rey collections.

Letters from the author are certainly valid forms of evidence - and hardly "fringe." Letters and comments from the author are important parts of literary scholarship. Discounting Howard's thoughts in a letter is like researching a Beatles song written by Paul McCartney, but discarding any interviews where he discussed the song and the motivation behind it because "it wasn't in the song, so it don't count" or "it was a fringe interview, anyway."

Minimizing the evidence against your position doesn't create evidence in favour of your position. If my evidence is so weak, surely you can come up with contradictory evidence in the form of direct quotes from the stories, drafts, letters, and memoirs of Robert E. Howard.

 

[zozotroll]

And no, I didnt study the Picts as such, I studied the Romans. But if you study Roman Britain, you pick up a bit about them if you want to or not.

 

[Demetrio]

The historic Picts lived in north-east Scotland. It was really a name for a confederation of tribes rather than being a racial type per se. They were a kind of Celt.

While I'm in agreement with Vincent that it was the American Indians who were the inspiration for the Hyborian Age Picts culturally, it's fair to point out that the latter day Highlanders (well after the collapse of the Pictish culture) wore a form of moccasin. The Picts may have done so also.

Beyond the Black River just screams American pioneers to me. Scalp Creek for instance... the historic Celts took heads, not scalps. Now to be fair, Howard does describe the Pictish villages containing 'the grinning skulls of men', so he may have lifted some historically Celtic things too.

He speaks of 'log cabins' (okay, at a push you could describe some historic Pict buildings as 'log cabins' but really the connection in most folk's minds will be with the American frontier). Also the ubiquitous buckskin boots and deerskin shirts of Conan's 'commandos' in that story is as American an image as you'll find. And they use canoes. And as Vincent says, the feathers etc are pure American.

It's also fair to say that while we know little about the historic Picts, when Howard was writing they were even more shadowy, whereas the American tribes were relatively well documented.

I'd add I thought that most of Howard's Pictland would be under the Atlantic Ocean, the British Isles formong part of Aquilonia and Cimmeria - though I may well be wrong on this.

And add again that while I do enjoy the Pictish stories in Howard, I've always (even when I was a lad) felt they were somehow out of place. That they didn't really fit with the rest of the cultures in other stories. In short, that they were 'Red Indians' transported to 'Europe'.

 

[Supplement Four]

Gunderland, I see as being a pastiche

I'm pretty sure Howard mentioned Gundermen somewhere. If not in some of his completed stories, then in some of his fragments. Nestor, from the fragment that became The Hall of the Dead, is a Gunderman.

 

[Demetrio]

Gundermen are pretty common in Howard, often rallying to Conan in his hour of need as King of Aquilonia, as well as being mentioned in Howard's 'historical essay' on the Hyborian Age. Gunderland is not a creation of pastiche writer's but I don't think Yyrkoon meant that it was.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Gunderland, I see as being a pastiche

I'm pretty sure Howard mentioned Gundermen somewhere. If not in some of his completed stories, then in some of his fragments. Nestor, from the fragment that became The Hall of the Dead, is a Gunderman.

Howard definitely created Gunderland. You can find Gunderland in Robert E. Howard's "Notes on Various Peoples of the Hyborian Age" and in his essay "The Hyborian Age." You can find mention of Gundermen in several of his stories, such as "Rogues in the House."

Gunderland is definitely not a pastiche. Somehow, I don't think PrinceYyrkoon meant that it was. I think he used the wrong word.

 

[Demetrio]

Here's what Howard says about the Picts in The Hyborian Age

'They had learned to work copper and tin... for which latter metal they raided... or traded hides, whale's teeth, walrus tusks... [they] built tents of hides and crude huts... they still lived mainly by the chase... but they had learned to plant grain, which they did sketchily, preferring to steal it... they dwelt in clans which were generally at feud with each other and their simple customs were blood-thirsty and generally inexplicable to civilised men.'

'human sacrifice, blood-feud and the burning alive of captives' are listed as amongst their customs.

Now the historic Picts were not forest dwellers, were skilled metal-workers, lived in buildings of wood and stone and were not primarily dependent on hunting game as a means of sustinance. Neither did they trade in whale's teeth or walrus tusks.

They did perhaps trade in hides, but that was not their main source of trade. Neither did they burn captives alive.

They did live in feuding clans, practise (limited) human sacrifice (before Christianisation).

So there are a few similarities.

But every single thing Howard lists is associated with American Indians of Last of the Mohicans ilk. The only Pictish custom I can think of that I am unaware was practised by American Indians is head-taking (as opposed to scalping).

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Gunderland, I see as being a pastiche

I'm pretty sure Howard mentioned Gundermen somewhere. If not in some of his completed stories, then in some of his fragments. Nestor, from the fragment that became The Hall of the Dead, is a Gunderman.

Howard definitely created Gunderland. You can find Gunderland in Robert E. Howard's "Notes on Various Peoples of the Hyborian Age" and in his essay "The Hyborian Age." You can find mention of Gundermen in several of his stories, such as "Rogues in the House."

Gunderland is definitely not a pastiche. Somehow, I don't think PrinceYyrkoon meant that it was. I think he used the wrong word.

Why, thanks for correcting me. What I meant to say is that the Gundermen were modelled on a specific cultural group, the fact that they dont, exactly, correspond to that cultural group, means that Howard used that cultural group as a starting point to his invention. Which is exactly the same situation when it comes to Picts.

Well, once again, heres what Ive been saying, its quite subtle, as any conversation between two people often is. Ready?

Howard took a specific historical cultural group, the Picts, laid on top of it a kind of smorgasbord of colour. That there are echoes of the Wild West about it, that Howard saw in the Picts a kind of 'savage' that has parallels to cultural groups of his own experience, he invented stuff. Got that?

Now, Howards Picts lose any kind of Amerind sheen when they expand from their homeland, after the Conan stories, (in Howards description of the movement of tribes and cultures in his writings called The Hyborian Age). They have no Amerind sheen previous to the stories, either. So lets consider,

'They no longer lived in caves and tree shelters, but built tents of hides and crude huts, copied from those of the Bossonians.'

Consider, also, the Pictish name, Gorm, American Indian name? No.

More...

'Arus set himself to work to eliminate the more unpleasant phases of Pictish life - such as human sacrifice, blood feud, and the burning alive of captives.' European or Amerind?

Further...

'Imagination reconstructs the scene - the black-haired chief, in his tiger skins and necklace of human teeth...doubtless, he pointed with repugnance at the rows of skulls which adorned the walls of the hut and urged Gorm to forgive his enemies instead of putting their bleached remnants to such use.'

More...

'Gorm wore a corselet of silvered mail now instead of his tiger skin, but underneath he was unchanged - the everlasting barbarian, unmoved by theology or philosophy, his instincts fixed unerringly on rapine and plunder.'

Sound like North American Indians? No? You want more?

'Gorm was not without gratitude; he caused the skull of the slayer to be set on top of the priest's cairn.' (a Celt detail, there...).

Theres a number of further quotes, but, if these dont do it for you, theres something wrong here.

Howards Picts are the archetypal fantasy barbarian, even moreso than the Cimmerians. He may alude, on occasion, to feathers or whatever, but theres no doubt that Howards Picts were, essentially, Northern European 'barbarians'.

I say again, you can accentuate the sheen of American Indian influence if you like, (theres some suggestion of such things), but as for the idea that his Pictish race are a white version of Plains (or forest) Indian culture plonked onto mainland Europe, is just plain silly, and nonsensical in light of Howards (usually), careful cultural invention.

Doesnt Howard say that, after the Picts expanded from their territories, they merged with other tribes and races to form, eventually, the ancestors of the Brythons, or Britons? So, in his opinion, Im partly American Indian? Rubbish.

Your suffering from wishful thinking, Im afraid.

 

[Demetrio]

Whilst Gorm is not an American Indian name, it's not, as far as I'm aware, one of the relatively few recorded Pictish name either, neither does it particulary sound like one.

Howard's Picts bear absolutely no relation to the historic group who were not forest dwellers, lived in buildings of wood and stone, did not use the canoe, did not burn captives, did not subsist largely through hunting game, used metal weapons, could work a variety of metals with some skill and had more complex social heirarchies than those displayed by Howard's Picts.

The only real similarity is the taking of heads, which was a universal pre-Christian Celtic custom, clan structure (common to many cultures, including american Indians - and Howards Pictish clans call to mind American tribes rather than Celtic ones) and a penchant for raiding (again hardly unique to either culture).

So I can't see a single uniquely (historical) Pictish aspect to Howard's Picts. I can see loads of aspects that are stereotypically associated with American Indians of 'last of the Mohicans' era, buttressed by the 'pioneering' slant to the background of Across Thunder River especially.

 

[VincentDarlage]

PrinceYyrkoon, the problem with your argument here is that Robert E. Howard wrote "The Hyborian Age" long before he hit on the idea of using Picts as an American Indian analogy. You are correct, the Picts of that essay have nothing to do with American Indians.

That doesn't change the fact that later he changed his approach and used the Picts differently. He often ignored that essay when it didn't suit his needs (cf. Acheron).

Again, REH himself says he used them as Indians, they dress like Indians, they act like Indians, and they live in a region described like the untamed American frontier.

I can readily acknowledge that this was not the initial concept, though.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Whilst Gorm is not an American Indian name, it's not, as far as I'm aware, one of the relatively few recorded Pictish name either, neither does it particulary sound like one.

Howard's Picts bear absolutely no relation to the historic group who were not forest dwellers, lived in buildings of wood and stone, did not use the canoe, did not burn captives, did not subsist largely through hunting game, used metal weapons, could work a variety of metals with some skill and had more complex social heirarchies than those displayed by Howard's Picts.

The only real similarity is the taking of heads, which was a universal pre-Christian Celtic custom, clan structure (common to many cultures, including american Indians - and Howards Pictish clans call to mind American tribes rather than Celtic ones) and a penchant for raiding (again hardly unique to either culture).

So I can't see a single uniquely (historical) Pictish aspect to Howard's Picts. I can see loads of aspects that are stereotypically associated with American Indians of 'last of the Mohicans' era, buttressed by the 'pioneering' slant to the background of Across Thunder River especially.

Im sorry, Im not sure how you draw those conclusions. Across Thunder River wasnt written by Howard, it was an invention of VD. Howards story was called Beyond the Black River. I think we are mixing up inventions by others.

Many stone age, bronze age, iron age cultures are similar. I would suggest that the burningof captives is a Northern European feature however, well known for their Wicker Men. And whilst Gorm is not a Pict name, it is not an American Indian name either, so I dont see why you could connect the two. Gorm, I would suggest, is a typical fantasy name, why assume Howard is describing an Indian?.

Moreso, Gorm is featured as being not at all interested in theology, which is very unlike the North American native culture, which had a Shintoesque viewpoint permeating every aspect of their lives. I would say, that too, is a generic fantasy conceit.

Further, for those that like to see similarities in dress, tigerskins, arent exactly Amerind, again, I would lean towards a generic fantasy element there.

We seem to constantly forget, too, the geography. I will conceed, (again), that Howard used cultural stereotypes and invented some aspects of detail, in the case of his Picts, there is some suggestion of a Wild West feel, purely to sell stories, I would venture.

BUT, and heres the simple assertion, Howards Pictish race, arent Indians. They arent Red Indians. They arent White Indians. They may have, in some cases, a passing resemblance to Amerind culture in certain stories. But this isnt consistently the case. It is clear that Howards Picts are the partial ancestors of prehistoric Brythons. This is asserted in Howards writing. And, in that sense, they are similar to their historic namesakes. To assert otherwise is madness. It doesnt make sense.

And as for this idea that Howard didnt intend to create an anthropological simile, is tantamount to saying that he was an idiot. To the contrary, I would think if Howard proposed ideas of racial uniqueness, it would be something he did with a view to promoting his ideology of 'purity'.

Now, the fact that we are looking at a prehistory version of Europe has to go UNDISPUTED. Howard states this absolutely clearly in his history of the continent. He would be an absolute freakin' imbecile to seriously plonk Red Indians into Europe wholesale. Theres many opinions of Howard being less than a genius, but, man, that takes the almighty biscuit. People seem to be seeing similarities, and then make strange assumptions that go against the basic thrust of Howards fictional history of the Eurasian continent.

I will state again, that the Amerind sheen of Howards Picts has been EXAGGERATED by pastiche writers. They see the similarity, but dont seem to understand the metaphor.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

The problem with your argument here is that Robert E. Howard wrote "The Hyborian Age" long before he hit on the idea of using Picts as an American Indian analogy. You are correct, the Picts of that essay have nothing to do with American Indians.

That doesn't change the fact that later he changed his approach and used the Picts differently. He often ignored that essay when it didn't suit his needs (cf. Acheron).

Well, thats the sound of someone not accepting my evidence. Theres no problem with my argument. Youre assuming that Howard knows less than you. I want to see how people justify the presence of Red Indians in the prehistory of Europe. Thats a basic problem in your assumption. And there can be no argument that Howard thought of his Hyborian Age as a fictional account of the prehistory of Europe, or will you dispute that too?

So, we all agree that the Picts are white and not Amerind racially. We agree that, Howard didnt intially paint his Picts out to be Indian, far from it, in fact. I dont give a monkeys that he later contradicted himself for a quick buck. Theres his pulp tendencies displaying themselves again.

What are we left with? A mention of feathers and soft shoes, later, and earlier, contradited? That must mean that theyre Red Indians! Tosh. Theyre the early, partial ancestors of Northern European tribes.

I'll say again, to think that they are actually Indians, as opposed to metaphorical ones, is Just. Plain. Crazy.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

What a great argument this is! I didnt get much sleep last night. I was sniped by zozotroll as well, advancing from out of nowhere last night. I can only deal with one argument at a time, Im afraid.

 

[Demetrio]

I was actually meaning howard's Beyond the Black river and taking my ideas from it's text. I rather stupidly I gave the de Camp title (which I haven't read). Sorry for the confusion.

There is absolutely no evidence of the Picts burning captives. there is evidence of probable human sacrifice by beheading and maybe drowning.

I'm not remotely suggesting Gorm is an indian name. but there's no way it's a Pict one. i wanted to make that clear.

there's no 'suggestion' of a Wild West theme that I can see, more a strong C18 American frontier feel and absolutely no suggestion of a historical Pictish feel beyond a generic Celtic head-taking.

Howard was quite clear that his 'history' was not intended to be taken seriously. Why on earth shouldn't he put an American culture in 'europe' (or actually what would become the Atlantic Ocean, as far as I can see).

Anyway, so long as we're clear that the only solid connection to the historical Picts are head-taking and the name, and that there are plenty of connections to American Indians (breech clouts, hunting culture, feathers worn in the hair etc etc), i'm happy.

Just to add, the Picts described in The Hyborian Age, have nothing in common with the historical Picts.

 

[VincentDarlage]

You are correct, the Picts of that essay have nothing to do with American Indians.

I can readily acknowledge that this was not the initial concept, though.

Well, thats the sound of someone not accepting my evidence.

No, I accepted your evidence, and acknowledged that a) the Picts of that essay have nothing to do with American Indians and that b) acknowledged that the Pict-Indian analogy wasn't used by Howard at that time.

 

[Demetrio]

In The Hyborian Age, the Picts are described as 'dark-skinned'. So at that point,. Howard can't have thought of them as 'white'.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I was actually meaning howard's Beyond the Black river and taking my ideas from it's text. ather stupidly I gave the de Camp title (which I haven't read). Sorry for the confusion.

There is absolutely no evidence of the Picts burning captives. there is evidence of probable human sacrifice by beheading and maybe drowning.

I'm not remotely suggesting Gorm is an indian name. but there's no way it's a Pict one. i wanted to make that clear.

there's no 'suggestion' of a Wild West theme that I can see, more a strong C18 American frontier feel and absolutely no suggestion of a historical Pictish feel beyond a generic Celtic head-taking.

Howard was quite clear that his 'history' was not intended to be taken seriously. Why on earth shouldn't he put an American culture in 'europe' (or actually what would become the Atlantic Ocean, as far as I can see).

Anyway, so long as we're clear that the only solid connection to the historical Picts are head-taking and the name, and that there are plenty of connections to American Indians (breech clouts, hunting culture, feathers worn in the hair etc etc), i'm happy.

Yes, sorry, that was was a bit of confusion about the name of the story.

There is evidence of Celtic cultural tribes burning captives as a religious sacrifice, but, it doesnt neccessarily confine the description to Northern Europeans.

But theres more than just the head taking and the name. Theres the geography, the racial description of them being white, the eventual ancestry of Northern European descendants detailed in Howards writing.

The fact that we dont take fantasy seriously, isnt, exactly right. Howard postualtes some pretty serious pseudo-anthropological arguments about 'purity' of race, etc.. He cant get away with it by saying, 'its only fantasy'. The 'purity' of the Aryan race was argued quite seriously, less than ten years later with pretty serious consequences.

I would say that Howards Picts are closer to historical fact, with sometimes, a little contradictory sheen of Amerind culture. He did this either as matephor, or to make money at the expense of the consistency of his creation. His pseudo-history of a mythic version of Europe makes none of these parallels. It, therefore, makes far more consistent sense.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

You are correct, the Picts of that essay have nothing to do with American Indians.

I can readily acknowledge that this was not the initial concept, though.

Well, thats the sound of someone not accepting my evidence.

No, I accepted your evidence, and acknowledged that a) the Picts of that essay have nothing to do with American Indians and that b) acknowledged that the Pict-Indian analogy wasn't used by Howard at that time.

:lol: Well wheres the argument?! I asked for evidence, you asked for evidence, our evidence contradicted the previous evidence.

It all seems to come down now, to the importance of either the general, or the particular. You say that, in some stories, theres a similarity to Amerind culture. I say that, in the overall scheme of things, the postulation that Howard specifically meant that they were Indians, doesnt make sense, considering the internal consistency of Howards overall concept.

We have to agree to differ. But Im right. :lol: