A Melting Pot of Tastes

[kintire]

Aquilonia - medieval france
Nemedia - ancient roman empire?
Corinthia - greece in its antiquity?
Pictland - the wild west
Vanaheim/Asgard - vikings, without the drakkars
Stygia - mystical egypt
Vendhya - mystical india
Khitai - ancient china?
Hyrkania/Turan - the mongolians/huns under their great leaders?

Aquilonia represents medieval North Western Europe. It has the army that real medieval kings could only dream of: French heavy cavalry, English longbowmen and Swiss pikemen all in one force. You could conquer the world with that...

Nemedia is a more centralised and romanised Holy Roman Empire of the Germans, complete with Landsknecht.

Corinthia is not very well detailed in Howard. If Rogues in the House is set in Corinthia, it looks like north Italy.

Pictland is indeed the wild west, Stygia, Vendhya and Khitai are Egypt, India and China (in as much as they are detailed at all, and bearing in mind Vendhya isn't all of India).

The Hyrkanians are the steppe peoples, mongols and huns.

The Turanians are the Ottoman Turks.

In addition:

Zingara: Spain

Argos: The naval aspect of England (Bossonia being the other side)

Shem: Ancient Mesopotamia/Medieval Syria

Ghulistan/Zhaibar pass: Afghanistan/ Khyber pass.

Barachan Isles: Carribean (Pirate aspect rather than colonies)

Tortage: Port Royal

Black Kingdoms: Africa

Koth: Holy Roman Empire played rather straighter.

 

[Scorpion13]

The Hyborian Age is basically a world set in a backlot of a Cecil B De Mille historical epic - anything and anyone could turn up: 18th century style pirates, biblical era soldiers, vikings and knights.

More or less.

Basically, all the best, most exciting parts all jammed together.

Eh. Works for me.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Aquilonia - medieval france
Nemedia - ancient roman empire?
Corinthia - greece in its antiquity?
Pictland - the wild west
Vanaheim/Asgard - vikings, without the drakkars
Stygia - mystical egypt
Vendhya - mystical india
Khitai - ancient china?
Hyrkania/Turan - the mongolians/huns under their great leaders?

Aquilonia represents medieval North Western Europe. It has the army that real medieval kings could only dream of: French heavy cavalry, English longbowmen and Swiss pikemen all in one force. You could conquer the world with that...

Nemedia is a more centralised and romanised Holy Roman Empire of the Germans, complete with Landsknecht.

Corinthia is not very well detailed in Howard. If Rogues in the House is set in Corinthia, it looks like north Italy.

Pictland is indeed the wild west, Stygia, Vendhya and Khitai are Egypt, India and China (in as much as they are detailed at all, and bearing in mind Vendhya isn't all of India).

The Hyrkanians are the steppe peoples, mongols and huns.

The Turanians are the Ottoman Turks.

In addition:

Zingara: Spain

Argos: The naval aspect of England (Bossonia being the other side)

Shem: Ancient Mesopotamia/Medieval Syria

Ghulistan/Zhaibar pass: Afghanistan/ Khyber pass.

Barachan Isles: Carribean (Pirate aspect rather than colonies)

Tortage: Port Royal

Black Kingdoms: Africa

Koth: Holy Roman Empire played rather straighter.

Well, Id say Corinthia would have to be Greece, due to the name and proximity to other pseudo-European countries. Pictland is pretty much the historical land of the Picts, rather than the Wild West, it would be areas like Devon, Wales, Ireland, remote areas of Scotland, obviously. I think the sheen of Amerind culture was emphasized by others, rather than Howard.

People seem to have a problem seeing a direct analogy to Zamora, but there are plenty of countries thhat fit the bill, Balkan countries, places like Romania, I'd probably see it as Howards version of Transylvania.

I think, often, Howard will go for ancient, rather than medieval analogies, so I'd say Hyrkania has aspects of Thracian or Scythian culture, rather than being a 'Golden Horde' substitute.

Theres no reason to look elsewhere when seeing Howards inspiration for his cultures, or his cultural parallels, theres plenty of variation and cultural drift to draw on, right where he places these things on his pseudo-European map. Looking at the overlayed map of the real Europe, its pretty obvious that Howard did little invention, rather, he wrote about, and took inspiration from cultures already present in history. I wouldnt, neccessarily, graft on cultures from other areas, like Amerinds, or whatever. Each of his countries has direct parallels with real ones on the Eurasian continent.

 

[flatscan]

Pictland is pretty much the historical land of the Picts, rather than the Wild West, it would be areas like Devon, Wales, Ireland, remote areas of Scotland, obviously. I think the sheen of Amerind culture was emphasized by others, rather than Howard.

That is demonstrably false. REH gave most of the Picts in his stories Algonquin-sounding names (Brule for example), thus he imposed the native American sheen over them. What they share with the Picts of history is little more than the name 'Picts'. Treat 'em differently if you like, but don't claim that Howard intended them to not have a native American sheen. He wrote them that way, likely inspired by the stories of older neighbors in Cross Plains who told yarns of native warfare a generation before Howard was born.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Pictland is pretty much the historical land of the Picts, rather than the Wild West, it would be areas like Devon, Wales, Ireland, remote areas of Scotland, obviously. I think the sheen of Amerind culture was emphasized by others, rather than Howard.

That is demonstrably false. REH gave the Picts in his stories Algonquin-sounding names, thus he imposed the native American sheen over them. What they share with the Picts of history is little more than the name 'Picts'. Treat 'em differently if you like, but don't claim that Howard intended them to not have a native American sheen.

Theres no description of actiual Amerind culture anywhere stated in his writing, no teepees, no horse culture, no American Indian mythology. You can put that sheen on if you like, but its not in Howard. As to the names, well, Pictish culture isnt the best documented around, I suggest that he looked for odd sounding names in an arbitrary fashion. He doesnt call them 'Iroquois', or 'Apache', he calls them 'Picts' because thats what they are.

 

[flatscan]

In your mind, sure. There's been a lot of writing by guys who've analyzed REHs stories and they've come to the same conclusion on the subject. Also, native americans didn't always use horses. Those were introduced by the Spaniards and other European settlers. Howard used the word Picts and not a name for native Americans because this was fantasy and he wanted something that sounded like it'd come from long ago in pre-history days, as opposed to a people Texans were warring with just a generation before he was born.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

In your mind, sure.

Well, we all know to scratch your skin is to invite insult. Well done!

 

[flatscan]

You think that was an insult??? :roll:

You're the guy that jumps into healthy conversations with your, "Howard was a hack, didn't invent anything for his writings, just took stuff from history and this is how it is because I said so," attitude. You've insulted fans on this board simply for being fans.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

You think that was an insult??? :roll:

You're the guy that jumps into healthy conversations with your, "Howard was a hack, didn't invent anything for his writings, just took stuff from history and this is how it is because I said so," attitude. You've insulted fans on this board simply for being fans.

Yeah, take your axe and grind it elsewhere, ey? Be more like Strom, he doesnt read my posts. I'll promise not to read yours.

 

[flatscan]

Oh ok. Guess you told me. I'd been ignoring your posts for some time. It's been a healthy policy but your, "I know what Howard's intent was" attitude struck my ire again. Back to ignoring.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

In your mind, sure. There's been a lot of writing by guys who've analyzed REHs stories and they've come to the same conclusion on the subject. Also, native americans didn't always use horses. Those were introduced by the Spaniards and other European settlers. Howard used the word Picts and not a name for native Americans because this was fantasy and he wanted something that sounded like it'd come from long ago in pre-history days, as opposed to a people Texans were warring with just a generation before he was born.

I'll read this one, however. This sort of demonstrates your lack of understanding. There are people today who still like to call themselves 'Picts'. Picts, rather than being 'something that sounded like it'd come from long ago in pre-history days', are a specific cultural group. We can talk about whether Howard had in mind American Indians, but the description of a primitive, stone age forested culture bears a kind of paraody resemblance to Pictish culture.

Not everything Howard wrote was due to personal experience, Id say thats a pretty good compliment for the guy. To say he wrote about 'Red Injuns' and called them 'Picts' cause it sounded all exotic, is to insult the guys intelligence.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Oh ok. Guess you told me. I'd been ignoring your posts for some time. It's been a healthy policy but your, "I know what Howard's intent was" attitude struck my ire again. Back to ignoring.

I've read this one as well.

Your assumption that you know Howards writing intimately, you know his motives, his worth, his inspirations and his backyard view of history, and that, because you live nearer to Cross Plains than most, that, somehow, gives your views more weight, gets my ire raised too.

 

[flatscan]

I'll read this one, however. This sort of demonstrates your lack of understanding. There are people today who still like to call themselves 'Picts'. Picts, rather than being 'something that sounded like it'd come from long ago in pre-history days', are a specific cultural group. We can talk about whether Howard had in mind American Indians, but the description of a primitive, stone age forested culture bears a kind of paraody resemlance to Pictish culture.

Not everything Howard wrote was due to personal experience, Id say thats a pretty good compliment for the guy. To say he wrote about 'Red Injuns' and called them 'Picts' cause it sounded all exotic, is to insult the guys intelligence.

Of course, my lack of understanding. And I'm the insulting one? So there are people today who call themselves Picts? So what? That proves nothing other than there are people out there with wish fulfillment issues. If you care to actually debate, please provide evidence that is relevant. Stone age technology, forested culture bears a resemblance to native Americans as well. I believe he fused the scant information he had on historical Picts with stories of native Americans. Howard also made the typical Pict of Bran Mak Morn's time be short, stocky, with thick gnarled limbs, beady black eyes, a low retreating forehead, a heavy jaw, and straight coarse black hair. Does that sound like Scots to you? Please read the letter that serves as a foreword of a lot of Bran Mak Morn books.

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, Id say Corinthia would have to be Greece, due to the name and proximity to other pseudo-European countries.

Yep, and Argos is the coastal/waterborne aspect of ancient Greece.

With a few notable exceptions, most of the Hyborian states can be thought of in a mesh of ancient Greek-meets-Rome terms. That's the default atmosphere. But, as an example of an exception, Zingara is more like medieval Spain.

 

[flatscan]

Your assumption that you know Howards writing intimately, you know his motives, his worth, his inspirations and his backyard view of history, and that, because you live nearer to Cross Plains than most, that, somehow, gives your views more weight, gets my ire raised too.

I have never made the claim that I know Howard's work better because I live in Austin. Is this a technique of yours? To put words in others mouth? Ok, don't take this as an insult, because it's just calling it as it is. You sir, are intellectually dishonest.

 

[B_Steele]

Alright Yrkoon...Flatscan...leave it be. This was an interesting thread until your arguing polluted it.

Take it elsewhere, please.

-Bry

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Your assumption that you know Howards writing intimately, you know his motives, his worth, his inspirations and his backyard view of history, and that, because you live nearer to Cross Plains than most, that, somehow, gives your views more weight, gets my ire raised too.

I have never made the claim that I know Howard's work better because I live in Austin. Is this a technique of yours? To put words in others mouth? Ok, don't take this as an insult, because it's just calling it as it is. You sir, are intellectually dishonest.

Ok. Lets call a halt, Mongoose Steele is right. Weve insulted each other, here is an olive branch. Howards Picts are a mix of a variety of influnces and dont, exactly, reflect any one culture in particular. Ok?

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Well, Id say Corinthia would have to be Greece, due to the name and proximity to other pseudo-European countries.

Yep, and Argos is the coastal/waterborne aspect of ancient Greece.

With a few notable exceptions, most of the Hyborian states can be thought of in a mesh of ancient Greek-meets-Rome terms. That's the default atmosphere. But, as an example of an exception, Zingara is more like medieval Spain.

Yes, of course, Argos, youre right. Maybe the difference between northern and southern Greek states, like Athens and Sparta.

 

[David St-Michel]

I would like to bring up a few personal points.

I saw Zingara as being a country closely ressembling Spain during the era of great naval exploration. I saw Argos as being like Portugal of that time : both nations locked in battle to try and dominate the seas, neither one really gaining a significant advantage. Only in wikipedia it suggests that Argos is much more greek-related, as the ship of the Argonauts was called the "Argo".

Gunderland, again referenced in Wikipedia, is either the Netherlands or perhaps has a link with the king of the Vandals, Gunther. Seeing as how Gundermen is an elite infantry armed with enormous piked and large shields, who fight in tight formations... I saw them as being more Spartha or Greek-like, personally.

Zamora is linked with the Romani people, and that really surprised me. With a city name like Shadizar, I had seen them with a bit of an arabic flair.

Then again, these are just my personal opinions. I welcome any thoughts or suggestions. Oh, and is there a proper map online somewhere that I can get that DOSEN'T contain several dozen errors?

 

[VincentDarlage]

Then again, these are just my personal opinions. I welcome any thoughts or suggestions. Oh, and is there a proper map online somewhere that I can get that DOSEN'T contain several dozen errors?

You might try these:


The Hyborian Age
The Whole Wide World: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyborian_age_full.jpg
The primary Hyborian age kingdoms: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyborian_age.jpg

Black Kingdoms
Amazon: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_amazon.jpg
Atlaia: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_atlaia.jpg
Darfar: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_atlaia.jpg
Kush and the Southern Desert: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_kush.jpg
Punt: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_punt.jpg
Southern Black Kingdoms: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_southern_black_kingdoms.jpg
Tombalku: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_tombalku.jpg
Zembabwei: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_zembabwei.jpg

The Blue East
Ghulistan: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_ghulistan.jpg
Hyrkania: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyrkania2.jpg
Hyrkania with Trade Routes: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyrkania3.jpg
Iranistan: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_iranistan.jpg
Khitai: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_khitai.jpg
Turan: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_turan2.jpg
Turan (closer): http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_turan3.jpg
Vendhya & Kosala: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_vendhya2.jpg

The Dreaming West
Aquilonia: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_aquilonia.jpg
Argos: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_argos.jpg
Brythunia: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_brythunia.jpg
Cimmeria: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_cimmeria.jpg
Corinthia: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_corinthia.jpg
Koth: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_koth.jpg
Nemedia: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_nemedia.jpg
Zamora: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_zamora.jpg
Zingara: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_zingara.jpg

Other
The Eastern Desert: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_eastern_desert.jpg
The Whole Wide World without borders or text: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyborian_age_full_clean.jpg
The primary Hyborian age kingdoms without borders or text: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/vd_hyborian_age_clean.jpg