A Melting Pot of Tastes

[PrinceYyrkoon]

In The Hyborian Age, the Picts are described as 'dark-skinned'. So at that point,. Howard can't have thought of them as 'white'.

Yeah, thats actually poetic, perhaps dark by being suntanned. Theres the lack of Howards consistency in that. But, it does specifically state, in authoritarian tones, that, although others called the Picts 'dark', they were, in fact, white skinned. Im sure VD will atest to this detail.

 

[VincentDarlage]

:lol: Well wheres the argument?! I asked for evidence, you asked for evidence, our evidence contradicted the previous evidence.

It all seems to come down now, to the importance of either the general, or the particular. You say that, in some stories, theres a similarity to Amerind culture. I say that, in the overall scheme of things, the postulation that Howard specifically meant that they were Indians, doesnt make sense, considering the internal consistency of Howards overall concept.

We have to agree to differ. But Im right. :lol:

Technically speaking, my evidence, because it comes later chronologically, contradicts your evidence. His letters and statements later state plainly that he did specifically intend to use the Picts as a Hyborian age stand-in for Indians so he could tell stories about the settling of America in a less obvious (and more marketable) manner. Although this was not his original intent with the Picts when he started the Conan tales, it certainly was his intent once he hit on the idea.

We can agree this was not his original intent. Your evidence shows this plainly. However, later he changed his mind. In his letters, he specifically references Beyond the Black River and states that it is his version of the American Indian conflicts. You can even see the progress from Wolves Beyond the Border to Beyond the Black River to The Black Stranger that the Picts become more and more definitely Indian. My evidence shows this to be the case.

You even admitted this in an earlier post, when I quoted The Black Stranger. You said, "This seems to suggest that they looked like American Indians, a patent absurdity."

 

[Strom]

Beyond the Black River just screams American pioneers to me.

That is because it is an American frontier story. From REH scholar and writer Mark Finn's book Blood & Thunder: The Life and Art of Robert E. Howard:"

But nothing can hold a candle to "Beyond the Black River."

The story was written at the end of the series, when Robert was ready to branch out in a different direction. He decided to do away with what had become something of a cliche in his Conan stories - the setting. Gone were the crumbling ruins and slave girls clad in silk. Instead, Robert relocated Conan to the frontier, literally.

In "Beyond the Black River," Aquilonia, the symbol of civilized power in Howard's Hyborian Age, is expanding its territory into the last patch of untamed wilderness, bordered by two rivers, Black River and Thunder River. The land is peopled by the Picts, painted savages who are also fierce warriors. Throughout the story, the reader walks the knife-edge between the settlers and soldiers in the log fort and the united Pict tribes bent on wiping them out as settlers encroach on Pict's lands.

The allusion to the plight of the early Texan settlers couldn't be more obvious, particularly when considering this letter written to HP Lovecraft in August 1931:

A student of early Texas history is struck by the fact that some of the most savage battles with the Indians were fought in the territory between the Brazos and Trinity rivers. A look at the country makes one realize why this is so. After leaving the thickly timbered littoral of East Texas, the westward sweeping pioneers drove the red men across the treeless rolling expanse now called the Forth Worth prairie, with comparative ease. But beyond the Trinity a new kind of country was encountered - bare, rugged hills, thickly timbered valleys, rocky soil that yielded scanty harvest, and was scantily watered.

Here the Indians turned ferociously at bay and among those wild bare hills many desperate war was fought out to a red finish. It took nearly forty years to win that country, and late into the [18]70's it was a scene of swift and bloody raids and forays - leaving their reservations above Red River, and riding like fiends the Comanches would strike the cross-timber hills within twenty-four hours... Some times they won, and outracing the avengers, splashed across Red River and gained their tipis, where the fires blazed, the drums boomed and the painted, feathered warriors leaped in grotesque dances celebrating their gains in horses and scalps...

This, in essence, is the plot and conflict of "Beyond the Black River," with the titular river disguising the Brazos River, and Thunder River serving as the Trinity.

-Blood & Thunder: The Life and Art of Robert E. Howard by Mark Finn

Mark continues to elaborate that "Texas lent itself well in the creation of the Hyborian Age."

The parallels are very obvious. Facts never stood in the way of Robert telling a good story and I think the American influence permeates Conan and the Hyborian Age and - as described above - the Hyborian Age Picts were not separate from that influence.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

And, AND! We may have little bronze axes, little soft shoes, but were is the analogy of American Indian CULTURE in Howards description of his Picts? Did they believe in rock spirits? Did they celebrate the four winds? Did they display any specifically Amerind cultural values? Values that cant be merely attributed to most primitive, isolationalist cultures? Did they hang young men from their nipples, whilst smoking pipes, ey?

No, its all just a bit of sheen.

 

[Demetrio]

I would say that Howards Picts are closer to historical fact

Historical Picts lived in houses of wood and stone construction, were organised in tribal heirarchies more complex than those portrayed by Howard's Picts and did not subsist 'chiefly of game'. Neither did they live in forests.

They made use of horses in battle and were skilled metal-workers. they were not a stone age (or copper age if you like) culture. they were nothing like Howard's Picts. Unlike the American Indians who are far, far more similar in dwelling, subsistence, weaponry and dress. Not to mention the terrain they live in.

If Howard intended his Picts to be like the historic Picts it's amazing how much he made them like American Indians. Even in The Hyborian Age essay.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

:lol: Well wheres the argument?! I asked for evidence, you asked for evidence, our evidence contradicted the previous evidence.

It all seems to come down now, to the importance of either the general, or the particular. You say that, in some stories, theres a similarity to Amerind culture. I say that, in the overall scheme of things, the postulation that Howard specifically meant that they were Indians, doesnt make sense, considering the internal consistency of Howards overall concept.

We have to agree to differ. But Im right. :lol:

Technically speaking, my evidence, because it comes later chronologically, contradicts your evidence. His letters and statements later state plainly that he did specifically intend to use the Picts as a Hyborian age stand-in for Indians so he could tell stories about the settling of America in a less obvious (and more marketable) manner. Although this was not his original intent with the Picts when he started the Conan tales, it certainly was his intent once he hit on the idea.

We can agree this was not his original intent. Your evidence shows this plainly. However, later he changed his mind. In his letters, he specifically references Beyond the Black River and states that it is his version of the American Indian conflicts. You can even see the progress from Wolves Beyond the Border to Beyond the Black River to The Black Stranger that the Picts become more and more definitely Indian. My evidence shows this to be the case.

It doesnt show anything of the sort. Doesnt anyone understand metaphor? Doesnt anyone attribute Howard with the ability to understand these parallels?

Man, Lord save us from fundamentalist viewpoints of face value assumptions. Do you, VD, assume that Howard, seriously, without regard to the internal consistency of his creation, grafted on Red Indians to the side of French medieval Aquilonia? Thereby destroying any sense of rationality?

Or, do you consider that Howard wanted to write about the trials and tribulations of frontier life via his best selling character? Alluding to various parallels along the way?

I understand now, the absolute futility of trying to convince believers, in the concept of rationality, when describing a creative occupation such as writing. I know that, in order to write rpg books, you have to concentrate on practicalities. But you must know that people who write books dont consider these things of utmost importance.

Do you seriously think that Lovecraft, for instance, wrote about tentacly monsters? Or do you consider the possibility of metaphor? Do you think that the Call of Cthulhu game describes Lovecrafts vision exactly? OR, do you consider Lovecrafts writing to be partly, a product of symbolist literature? And, do you consider Lovecraft and Howard to have the same basic approach to the art of writing?

I have to rationaly assume that, in order for Howards creation to make rational sense, he included aspects of frontier life into his writing, rather than consider the outlandish idea that he actually thought of his Picts as Red Indians in all but name. Howard was a writer, and as such, I would consider him capable of lateral thinking, which seems absent in your assesment. You concentrate upon the trappings of some story or other, and think you know whats going on, when, actually, youve been misled, blinded by the obvious into forgetting the rational foundations of the whole.

 

[Demetrio]

I don't see what's so terribly irrational about it. If you can accept the hodge-podge of C16 Iberian cultures merrily swimming alongside C14/15 French and German, with a healthy mix of Dark Age pseudo-Celtic/Norse thrown in... why not allow that he could have a non-European stone/'copper' age society thrown in there? Howard mixed all sorts of anachronisms together. Tigers in Europe... chariots fighting mail armed knights, C19 Afghanis (minus jezzails) crossing swords with pseudo-medieval (east) Indians.

Much the same as Tolkien stuck the Saxons on horses to create the Rohirrim and took the mythical contented late early C20 English country dweller and shrank him in size to create a hobbit. Looked at rationally, it's all a bit... well... fantastic.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I don't see what's so terribly irrational about it. If you can accept the hodge-podge of C16 Iberian cultures merrily swimming alongside C14/15 French and German, with a healthy mix of Dark Age pseudo-Celtic/Norse thrown in... why not allow that he could have a non-European stone/'copper' age society thrown in there? Howard mixed all sorts of anachronisms together. Tigers in Europe... chariots fighting mail armed knights, C19 Afghanis (minus jezzails) crossing swords with pseudo-medieval (east) Indians.

Much the same as Tolkien stuck the Saxons on horses to create the Rohirrim and took the mythical contented late early C20 English country dweller and shrank him in size to create a hobbit. Looked at rationally, it's all a bit... well... fantastic.

Well, first off, theyre all European cultures, situated in a similar area to their historical counterparts, which gives some kind of internal consistency. Which I think is important.

The most powerful fantasy is that which is not far removed from reality.

 

[Demetrio]

Well he moved Zembabwei (Zimbabwe) to roughly Sudan, over 2000 miles. Why no the 3000 or so miles from the eastern USA to Ireland (and in fact a bit less as the Picts largely inhabit the Atlantic Ocean?

Of course one may object that in the first instance the culture remains within the same continent, but I can't see that as being terribly important. There's a big difference between Sudan and Zimbabwe and not just in terms of distance...

And I'll repeat, Howard's Picts bear no relation to the historic Picts in terms of dwelling, cultural heirarchy, subsistence, metal-working, animal husbandry or methods of warfare, or indeed physical environment or religious practices. The taking of heads is a probable similarity, and the feuding of course.

the glaring similarities, even in the Hyborian Age essay are with American Indians, or some other pre-bronze age woodland dwelling hunting culture.

Purely as an aside, the Celts didn't burn prisoners taken in war.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Well he moved Zembabwei (Zimbabwe) to roughly Sudan, over 2000 miles. Why no the 3000 or so miles from the eastern USA to Ireland (and in fact a bit less as the Picts largely inhabit the Atlantic Ocean?

Of course one may object that in the first instance the culture remains within the same continent, but I can't see that as being terribly important. There's a big difference between Sudan and Zimbabwe and not just in terms of distance...

And I'll repeat, Howard's Picts bear no relation to the historic Picts in terms of dwelling, cultural heirarchy, subsistence, metal-working, animal husbandry or methods of warfare, or indeed physical environment or religious practices. The taking of heads is a probable similarity, and the feuding of course.

the glaring similarities, even in the Hyborian Age essay are with American Indians, or some other pre-bronze age woodland dwelling hunting culture.

Well, Zimbabwe is a capricious example, considering most of the inhabitants of the U.S. arent familiar with African geography, (this isnt my opinion, there are relevant statistics).

''Howard's Picts bear no relation to the historic Picts in terms of dwelling, cultural heirarchy, subsistence, metal-working, animal husbandry or methods of warfare, or indeed physical environment or religious practices''

I disagree. And short of a few artifacts, Howards Picts bear no similarity to American Indians, either philosophically, religiously, or in any way that matters other than (partial) appearance (some of the time).

We can go on like this, but its not going to make any difference to what either of us thinks.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Hang on, youve just said,

'the glaring similarities, even in the Hyborian Age essay are with American Indians, or some other pre-bronze age woodland dwelling hunting culture.'

Well, I dont know how you got that from The Hyborian Age at all. Even VD has conceeded ground on this. I would advise a further look.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

And I will repeat

'You concentrate upon the trappings of some story or other, and think you know whats going on, when, actually, youve been misled, blinded by the obvious into forgetting the rational foundations of the whole.'

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

And youve just stated that Celts didnt burn captives, which is amazingly inaccurate.

 

[Demetrio]

Do Howard's Picts build stone walled structures (brochs)?

Do they make their own iron weapons (before being shown by a foreign priest)?

Do they have political authority beyond the immediate tribe or charismatic 'war leader?

Do they ride horses? Keep pigs? Sheep?

Are they extensive arable farmers, raising a variety of crops as a primary means of subsistence?

Do they posess mills? Kilns?

Are they literate?

Because the Picts were/had/did all these things.

The only real similarities are with American Indians, however superficial you may regard them.

 

[Demetrio]

And youve just stated that Celts didnt burn captives, which is amazingly inaccurate.

Evidence?

The Celts did sacrifice by burning. But not prisoners of war.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

And youve just stated that Celts didnt burn captives, which is amazingly inaccurate.

Evidence?

The Celts did sacrifice by burning. But not prisoners of war.

Who said anything about prisoners of war?

 

[Demetrio]

Right.

From The Hyborian Age:

The Picts 'built tents of hides and crude huts'

'lived mainly by the chase since their wilds swarmed with game of all sorts'

'had learnt how to plant grain, which they did sketchily'

'traded hides, whale's teeth, walrus tusks and such few things as savages have to trade'

Now all the above are stereotypically associated with American Indians - and utterly unlike the historical Picts.

 

[Demetrio]

Purely as an aside, the Celts didn't burn prisoners taken in war.

Was what I said originally.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Do Howard's Picts build stone walled structures (brochs)?

Do they make their own iron weapons (before being shown by a foreign priest)?

Do they have political authority beyond the immediate tribe or charismatic 'war leader?

Do they ride horses? Keep pigs? Sheep?

Are they extensive arable farmers, raising a variety of crops as a primary means of subsistence?

Do they posess mills? Kilns?

Are they literate?

Because the Picts were/had/did all these things.

The only real similarities are with American Indians, however superficial you may regard them.

Native American Indian culture...

Cherokee Prayer Blessing

May the Warm Winds of Heaven
Blow softly upon your house.
May the Great Spirit
Bless all who enter there.
May your Mocassins
Make happy tracks
in many snows,
and may the Rainbow
Always touch your shoulder.

Native American Prayer

Oh, Great Spirit
Whose voice I hear in the winds,
And whose breath gives life to all the world,
hear me, I am small and weak,
I need your strength and wisdom.
Let me walk in beauty and make my eyes ever behold
the red and purple sunset.
Make my hands respect the things you have
made and my ears sharp to hear your voice.
Make me wise so that I may understand the things
you have taught my people.
Let me learn the lessons you have
hidden in every leaf and rock.

I seek strength, not to be greater than my brother,
but to fight my greatest enemy - myself.
Make me always ready to come to you
with clean hands and straight eyes.
So when life fades, as the fading sunset,
my Spirit may come to you without shame.


(translated by Lakota Sioux Chief Yellow Lark in 1887)
published in Native American Prayers - by the Episcopal Church.

Lakota Instructions for Living

Friend do it this way - that is,
whatever you do in life,
do the very best you can
with both your heart and mind.

And if you do it that way,
the Power Of The Universe
will come to your assistance,
if your heart and mind are in Unity.

When one sits in the Hoop Of The People,
one must be responsible because
All of Creation is related.
And the hurt of one is the hurt of all.
And the honor of one is the honor of all.
And whatever we do effects everything in the universe.

If you do it that way - that is,
if you truly join your heart and mind
as One - whatever you ask for,
that's the Way It's Going To Be.

passed down from White Buffalo Calf Woman

Earth, Teach Me

Earth teach me quiet ~ as the grasses are still with new light.
Earth teach me suffering ~ as old stones suffer with memory.
Earth teach me humility ~ as blossoms are humble with beginning.
Earth teach me caring ~ as mothers nurture their young.
Earth teach me courage ~ as the tree that stands alone.
Earth teach me limitation ~ as the ant that crawls on the ground.
Earth teach me freedom ~ as the eagle that soars in the sky.
Earth teach me acceptance ~ as the leaves that die each fall.
Earth teach me renewal ~ as the seed that rises in the spring.
Earth teach me to forget myself ~ as melted snow forgets its life.
Earth teach me to remember kindness ~ as dry fields weep with rain.

An Ute Prayer


Treat the earth well.
It was not given to you by your parents,
it was loaned to you by your children.
We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors,
we borrow it from our Children.

Ancient Indian Proverb

Humankind has not woven the web of life.
We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.
All things are bound together.
All things connect.

Chief Seattle, 1854


Does ANY of this have any resemblance to Howards Picts? Emphatically not. You see a Pict with a feather, and a bronze axe and you make the ridiculous asumption that Howard was an idiot and placed American Indians in his version of Europe. He placed a temporary analogy there once or twice, for the benefit of a story or two. Do not read into it, however, that just because this white guy has an axe, that he must be culturally, or in any other meaningful way, the same as an American native.

Stop now. Seriously, there is no sense to what you are proposing.

 

[zozotroll]

So how about posting some real Pict prayers so we can compare/contrast?

So far, you have brought nothing beyond the name and skin colar to show that they are based on Picts.