A Melting Pot of Tastes

[VincentDarlage]

Are you guys trying to say that simple progression ain't what Howard meant?

That is what Scorpion13 is saying, I guess. I think he is saying, Kull Picts to Conan Picts to Little People to Children of the Night to Worms of the Earth. Bran Mak Morn's Picts are some other branch of Pict, I suppose.

I say it is Kull Picts to Conan Picts to conquering Picts (driving Little People to become Children of the Night to become Worms of the Earth) to become Bran Mak Morn's Picts.

 

[Supplement Four]

I say it is Kull Picts to Conan Picts to conquering Picts (driving Little People to become Children of the Night to become Worms of the Earth) to become Bran Mak Morn's Picts.

Good. I thought I was off in left field there for a moment.

 

[zozotroll]

Of course you are off in left field. You play a niche game of a niche hobby. But there are a few others of us standing around with you. And Vincent makes more semse to me as well.

 

[Scorpion13]

My theory is this:

Kull Era Picts: Barbarous people, roughly around the level of Cimmerians developmental wise.

1st Cataclysm:

Conan Era Picts: Regressed from the cataclysm, losing alot of whatever development they gained before the previous cataclysm. Regress from barbarism into outright savagery, not too far above stone age.

2nd Cataclysm:

The Thurian continent breaks up, and the Picts find themselves on the British isles and regress further because of cataclysm. Peoples from Asia migrate to British isles, and drive the native Picts away from habitable areas into caves near swamps and moors. Inbreeding, worship of dark gods, black magic use and constant fighting from newcomer peoples drive them underground and degenerates them further into subhuman, dwarfish race. The race that drives them underground either takes the name of Picts, or is confused with the original Picts, and they are now known as Picts, but in fact have nothing to do with the original race. As time goes by, they keep the name, forgetting how they got it.

Time of "Worms of the Earth":

Roman invasion begins, the original Picts, now almost extinct with only a single colony left in the bowels of the earth, are almost a legend. Probably went extinct before middle ages.


So, thats my theory. Fantastic, my yes, but really, Howard's works have almost nothing to do with legitimate science. And keep in mind, the worship of dark gods and use of black magic was, it appears, in Howard's mind something that affected whether a race flourished or degenerated.

Just my thoughts.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Im sicka talking about Picts now!

Do you think Aquilonia is more like the Burgundy of Charles the Bold, or more like Ile de France?

It could be the former, because of Aquilonias constant war with Nemdia, (which could be a loose analogy of Swirzerland, as opposed to what was previously thought, though it shows little similarity).

Brythunia is in the wrong place for Britain too. Although there can be no other country that plays the part of Britain.

However, do you know I was born in the same place as Conan? The superimposed map that was in those Sphere books places Conans home pretty much near where I was born. So Im a Cimmerian! Impressed?

Actually, do you think Cimmeria is the cultural equivalent of the real Cimmeria? Or do you think its supposed to be a 'Brythonic' culture, or Celtic. I didnt like the Mongoose Cimmeria book, I have to admit, I really dont see Cimmerians as being Celtic at all. I dont really know what they are, but painting them out to be Celtic is a bit lazy, I think.

 

[VincentDarlage]

My theory is this:
Time of "Worms of the Earth":

Roman invasion begins, the original Picts, now almost extinct with only a single colony left in the bowels of the earth, are almost a legend. Probably went extinct before middle ages.

Just my thoughts.

Then who exactly are Bran Mak Morn's Picts in this theory? They exist during the time of the Worms of the Earth.

How do you explain Bran Mak Morn's monologue when he first encounters the Worms? Atla says they will die, not only because he is human, but because he is a Pict. Bran then defiantly admits he is a Pict and that it was his people who drove the Worms of the Earth underground and reawakened the fear they once felt about the Picts.

Bran Mak Morn is the King of the Picts - they are still around in that story, and not as Worms.

 

[Spongly]

Cimmerians certainly have Celtic names, and worship Irish pagan gods like Crom (Cruach), Lyr, Mannannan Mac Lyr and Morrigan. But other than that they don't seem to bear very much resemblance to any historical Celtic people other than being stereotypically dour, grim and prone to melancholy.

The actual "Cimmerians" are a forerunner of the Scythians I think, and lived in the Crimea before being absorbed into Scythian culture. They would presumably therefore be rather more like Hyrkanians.

 

[kintire]

The actual "Cimmerians" are a forerunner of the Scythians I think, and lived in the Crimea before being absorbed into Scythian culture. They would presumably therefore be rather more like Hyrkanians.

They existed in the Crimea and southern Russia, but they were driven out by the Scythians, or some of them were. Most of what we know about them stems from the wars that ensued when a group of them were driven into Asia Minor and proceeded to rampage.

In later eras, peoples in that situation showed a strong tendency to head into Europe either through Hungary or across the North Europe Plain into Germany. If other groups of Cimmerians did this, that would put them at the right time and place for the origins of the Celts.

At one point, there was a theory that the Cimmerians were the ancestors of the Celts. The Celts themselves seem to have believed this, and there is some good evidence for it, notably the timing, the horse and material culture and especially the art, which shares powerful similarities. More recent evidence has been less supportive though, especially linguistic data. It seems that the Cimmerians spoke an Iranian dialect, not related to Celtic.

However the older data still remains, and it seems very possible that Cimmerian migrants may have been deeply involved in the rise of the Celts, even if the simple identity theory no longer works.

 

[Spongly]

At one point, there was a theory that the Cimmerians were the ancestors of the Celts. The Celts themselves seem to have believed this, and there is some good evidence for it, notably the timing, the horse and material culture and especially the art, which shares powerful similarities. More recent evidence has been less supportive though, especially linguistic data. It seems that the Cimmerians spoke an Iranian dialect, not related to Celtic.

I suspect that the "Celtic" belief in coming from Cimmerians might well come from monastic chronicles - the name "Cymry" which the Welsh used for themselves is superficially similar sounding, and early medieval people had a tendency to look through Biblical and earlier chronicles for their own origins - hence the somewhat bizarre medieval view that the Britons were descended from Brutus the Trojan, or the parallel Danish view that THEY were descended from Cimmerians because of the Cimbri who were supposed to have once lived on the Jutland peninsula.

Howard presumably got his ideas about Cimmerians from this belief that they were early ancestors of the Gaels though. On a related note, the Irish chornicles relate how they invaded by the "Children of Nemed" or "Nemedians" who came from Greece, another parallel about prehistoric tribes and kingdoms which Howard lifted.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

This is a picture of a Howardian Pict.

http://praxeology.net/picts-by-frazetta.PNG

No argument there.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Well, first off, theyre all European cultures, situated in a similar area to their historical counterparts, which gives some kind of internal consistency. Which I think is important.

The most powerful fantasy is that which is not far removed from reality.

I was wondering, PrinceYyrkoon, if you also objected to the Barachan Islands (with Tortage) being based on the Caribbean Islands (with Tortuga), since they are also part of the New World, or if that stretches things too much for you too.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Well, first off, theyre all European cultures, situated in a similar area to their historical counterparts, which gives some kind of internal consistency. Which I think is important.

The most powerful fantasy is that which is not far removed from reality.

I was wondering, PrinceYyrkoon, if you also objected to the Barachan Islands (with Tortage) being based on the Caribbean Islands (with Tortuga), since they are also part of the New World, or if that stretches things too much for you too.

:lol: No, I can accept that, it makes perfect sense to me! Well, if I consider it, I suppose that they are out to sea, in the right general direction arent they? Its only a matter of a little more distance. So I'll let him have that one.

I think, though, the comment about the best fanasty being close to reality is true. Not my quote, I hasten to add, I cant remember who said it, some 20th C novelist. Thats what I do like about Howard, even if it was due to laziness, or an offhand kind of invention, it remains one of the greatest fantasy worlds, maybe by default, because something like Shannara is so bad, but, still, I can smell the southern jungles, feel the cold of the northern mountains, hear the primitives that dwell in lost places. Thats a major achievement, isnt it? Its just those dammed Injuns that get me.

Im annoying people on the Runequest board at the minute, and I have to concentrate, but I'll be back before long to entartain you Conan types!