To katadder-
Yet the Narn have every reason to develop a fast, hard hitting ship that takes advantage of as many technologies as they can, just as the Centauri did.
And, having learned hard lessons in their devastating conflicts with the Centauri, likely realized just how important it was to pack as much firepower, armor, and survivability as a Bin'Tak into a hull as maneuverable as a Var'nic: Thus the G'vrahn. A ship with every technology the Narn could get from the ISA, plus whatever else they were able to salvage from their wars with the Shadows/Vorlons, Centauri, etc.
Don't forget that Sheridan and Delenn truly felt for the Narn's suffering; one can seriously not doubt that they'd give them advanced jump drives and teach them better metallurgy and engineering practices to improve their future ships.
You can explain away anything you want with fluff, but you have to apply it to both, then.
You can't use game balance to explain balancing the G'vrahn, then claim the "Fluff shield" protects the Liati from similiar examination. You can't selectively apply it.
To Target -
Lets apply that same examination technique to the Liati.
Marathon Advanced Cruiser vs Liati Advanced Cruiser.
- Both Battle Level
Marathon is Speed 12 to Liati Speed 14, Liati wins.
Marathon is 2x45 turns, to Liati 2x90 Agile turns. Liati wins.
Marathon has more hull, damage, and crew (Though the difference in Damage is marginal, a mere 14, at hull 6), and has 1 more troop. Marathon wins.
Marathon has 2 Auroras (Or T-bolts), to Liati with 2 Rutarians. Liati wins.
Marathon has 25 inch boresighted beam with 4 TD AD, to Liati with 18 inch FORWARD ARC 4 DD, Precise AD. Because the beam is forward arc, and Precise means it causes crits like mad, the Liati wins
Marathon has 4 AD Advanced Missile Rack, and 12 inch 6/10/4 TL AD of Pulse Cannon, to Liati's 10 inch 8 AD Forward Arc ACC, DD, SAP weapon and 12 inch turreted 8 AD ACC, DD weapon. Because it has 2x90A, the forward arc limitation doesn't mean a thing, compared to the 2x45 of the Marathon, which will require an "All Stop and Pivot" or "Come About" in order to bring the Forward Arc Missiles into play. And there's no way the Pulse Cannons will drop a Liati on their own. The Liati wins by a smaller margin.
Marathon is AF 4, IN 4, Comp to Liati AF 2, Dodge 4+, Comp. AF 4 doesn't mean crap against Rutarians, their best weapon is 4 inch range (2 AD of DD, P at 4 inches). IN 4 is okay, but it will only stop 8 AD, and that's if the Marathon player is extraordinarily lucky. If he stopped anymore, I'd recommend he go out and buy a lottery ticket, because that day is -his- lucky day. But Dodge 4+ is what takes the cake. What little the Marathon can get into arc on the Liati will be dodged. Liati wins.
With some amazing luck on the Marathon's part in getting a boresighted beam shot, and some dazzlingly poor dodge rolls on the Liati, the Marathon can win. Otherwise, completely outclassed. Unless, of course, you get the amazing luck of the Liati failing a dodge roll, then you getting a 6/6 crit with the Pulse Cannon of a Marathon before the Marathon is dead. If you do, buy some lottery tickets, you'll win.
So, the Liati is vastly superior to the Marathon, a supposedly equivalent Battle-level hull. "Nerf teh Liatiz!"
GhostRecon, the PL of a ship is not an indicator of its class or role, it's an indicator of its general effectiveness. The Liati is one of those smaller ships. It is not in the same class as the Primus or Dargan, it's a fast cruiser designed solely to destroy White Stars. It also doesn't totally eliminate the Centauri's weaknesses, it still has pretty short-ranged weapons and damage grossly below the average for its level. A couple of failed dodge rolls, or good e-mine hits, and it simply vanishes.
Except that they call the Liati an "Advanced Cruiser," the Dargan is a "Strike Cruiser" and the Primus is a "Battlecruiser" which would put them roughly into the same Hull-class, with the Primus supposedly being the heavier hull. Generally, PL of ships indicates the "hull size" as the bigger and heavier a ship, the rarer/more expensive it will be.
And it eliminates the chief weakness of high-priority level Centauri hulls - Slow speed paired with short ranged weaponry. And generally, Centauri Capital Ships of Battle and War-level are weak to fighter attack, having only one or two AF dice to fend off attacking fighters. The Liati completely bypasses this by having Accurate weapons, and it moves just as fast, if not faster, than most race fighters. And its low damage would matter, if it didn't have such a high dodge value (And only two weapons can bypass them, E-mines and Accurate weapons. Just how plentiful are those, again?) Its short ranged weapons would matter, if it wasn't as fast as a White Star, and could turn 180 degrees to keep a target within its forward arc. "Oh no, my 18 inch beams are short ranged.. oh wait, I move 14 inches in one turn, and that's before APTE! Can't hide from me..." or "Uh oh, he's behind me... wait, 180 degrees of turn! And I'm Agile! Sweet!"
As for "A couple of failed dodge rolls, or good e-mine hits, and it simply vanishes"...
That applies to every ship in the game. A couple of good hits, with a good critical or two, and any ship disappears. A 6/6 crit on a G'vrahn and it's in trouble. A 6/6 crit on a Marathon with a Liati, and its "Good Game."
I hear all these rants about the "broken" G'vrahn, then read these battle reports where Marathons, Omegas, Apollos, and even Warlocks are all butchered by Liatis like cattle to the slaughter and everyone sits there and refuses to acknowledge that something might just be wrong with them?
But then the Centauri, victorious and drunk on slaughtering the poor EA fleets, face off with their Liati-heavy forces against Narn ships sporting E-mine funpacks, and the screams for "nerf" begin?
That may not be the general purpose of these new debates, but that most definitely is the message being sent to other players reading this forum. There's nary a complaint about G'vrahns prior to the Earth-Centauri War games, yet the dust is barely settled afterwards when we hear the Centauri players screaming that the G'vrahn is broken.
I'd almost say Narn players should just field 4 Dag'Kars for every G'vrahn they'd field, except the Dag'Kars are little more than E-mine spewing death-traps against the two Liati's they'd be facing, which would have a field day cutting the poor hull 4 coffins to pieces. So much for that.
Quite simply, even if the G'vrahn was "balanced" and made "unbroken" there are simply no equivalent priority level hulls in the Narn fleet that could survive the Liatis.
Bin'Taks are a joke, even if they -did- have Slow-Loading E-mines. Are you kidding? The Liati's would run circles around the Bin'Tak.
The Bin'Tak and Ka'Bin'Tak are both too slow and too sluggish to maintain arc, and their 8 inch range secondaries, while formidable, are worse than useless against the ultra-maneuverable Liati. It can hover just out of range of those secondaries, hiding in the rear arc.
The G'Quonth and other G'Quan based hulls are sub par and simply not worth the choice, though the G'Quonth would be a pretty good alternative, if it was survivable. Unfortunately, at 55 damage, and with the same 5 inch speed and 1x45 lumbering turn as the Bin'Tak, it simply isn't capable of surviving against the Liati hunt-pack. With its 8 AD E-mine, which IS slow-loading, and the 8 AD Ion Torpedoes, you could kill a Liati if you were lucky, but that's only if the Centauri player is horribly unlucky with his dodge rolls, and doesn't CBD (Or APTE to get past the front arc) until his Liatis are behind the G'Quonth.
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