A G'Vrahn thread!**now with added poll!**

[Lord David the Denied]

What's that, more calls to nerf the Liati? You want the glass hammer to be more like a glass glove-slap? It has 9 more damage than a Vorchan for pity's sake! Aim a couple of your triple damage e-mines at it and it will just vanish. Broken? Broken my fragrant Centauri arse.

We all know the Demos has a couple more dice on the ion cannon than it should but it's hardly a game breaker. Apart from that I can't see any complaint at all with the Demos. Neither ship is in the same league as the G'Vrahn. As has been said before, it does everything the Narn normally better than any other ship and comes loaded with traits no other Narn ship has. It's not progression, it's a quantum leap forward in capabilities and it unbalances the game.

 

[Drozak]

hi.

dont you think that the always returning balancing discussion is a problem of the priority level system ?

We here in Herne,Germany are a regular group of 6 players and Powergamer.
We only play tournaments or campaigns.

After a few sessions of the first edition ACTA we realised that in every class there ist this one best ship and we fill up the ranks with this one.

In second edition its way better, you actually have tough choices from time to time, but the overall problem still exists.

The Bin'Tak has better secondaries ?

It has Speed 6 and lumbering, the enemy certainly can avoid the secondary armament.

It would be a nice Ship if the alternative for the same faction wouldnt be so superior.

I think the Octurion for example is a bad Joke, but since there is no Competition its ok.

And now it Comes :

What about a Points System ?

 

[Misiolak]

What's that, more calls to nerf the Liati? You want the glass hammer to be more like a glass glove-slap? It has 9 more damage than a Vorchan for pity's sake! Aim a couple of your triple damage e-mines at it and it will just vanish.

I would, but I am not a Narn player, so no energy mines for me :wink:
And it is not a call for nerf, quite opposite. As I stated earlier, do not mess with balance. Leave G'Vrahn and Liati alone.

And if you have to think of balance, think how to make larger ships balanced when comared to swarm fleets...

 

[Foxmeister]

Again, this conversation isn't about the Liati, so if someone wants to start another thread/poll I'm sure there's a worthwhile conversation to be had because there have definitely been a few voices opining that the Liati is overpowered.

However, to say that the G'Vrahn *unbalances* the game is a hugely strong statement and this polls results (at present) clearly prove that that isn't the case. At the time of writing, 52% are advocating no change whatsoever, and a further 24% are advocating a relatively minor change, which I believe most people would be happy with in concert with a change to the Bin'Tak.

Clearly you've been on the receiving end of some bad love from the G'Vrahn, but there are several counters to the G'Vrahn (2 Liatis is definitely a very good counter).

Regards,

Dave

P.S. I hate open polls - you've always got add a caveat in case the polls results swing widely round!

 

[Lord David the Denied]

And now it Comes :

What about a Points System ?

Buddy, you're not the first to say that and you won't be the last, but Matt has made it clear the PL system is here to stay. I'd love to see ACtA go to a points system, but it ain't gonna happen.

Clearly you've been on the receiving end of some bad love from the G'Vrahn, but there are several counters to the G'Vrahn (2 Liatis is definitely a very good counter).

I could probably counter it with a Vorchan or Demos swarm, too, but with the resources I had at the weekend I didn't have the capability to stop the G'Vrahn. I shouldn't have to take a specialised anti-White Star ship to stop the Narn's newest warship, either. Two Primi couldn't stop a G'Vrahn, and I doubt two Dargans could either. A single Octurion is certainly no match for it.

If I have to take a cheesy swarm of eight skirmish ships to stop your monster warship I call that broken.

 

[Drozak]

Oh, i yell for points quite regularly

I would like a fix that is easy to implement.
Like the E-Mine swap or removel from the GV.

Today i will try to field a GV with Sho'Kov support in a 5 point raid game.

I think that will be fun

 

[Foxmeister]

I could probably counter it with a Vorchan or Demos swarm, too, but with the resources I had at the weekend I didn't have the capability to stop the G'Vrahn. I shouldn't have to take a specialised anti-White Star ship to stop the Narn's newest warship, either. Two Primi couldn't stop a G'Vrahn, and I doubt two Dargans could either. A single Octurion is certainly no match for it.

I was surprised that you took an Octurion at the weekend (did anyone else?) as IMHO it is a poor War level ship - and that I think is the real problem! It's not necessarily that the G'Vrahn is too good, it's that the Octurion is too bad. The beam weapon on the Liati whilst 2AD down on the Octurion is DD - so the sum of 2 Liati is greater than a single Octurion. Plus, just because the fluff says that the Liati is a "specialized white star killer", doesn't mean that it shouldn't be excellent in other roles (which patently it is!).

I disagree that 2 Dargan isn't a good counter to a G'Vrahn - they are faster and just as manouverable, and whilst you can partially mitigate against stealth, if it works you can get on the tail of a G'Vrahn and it would find it very hard to shake them. Given the G'Vrahn has no aft weapons of any note, this would make it a relatively easy kill *if* you can get behind and I contend that there is a reasonable chance that this could happen.

If you want to keep calling the G'Vrahn broken, by all means do, but it is coming over more and more as an emotive response and is certainly not borne out by the (current) results of this poll! It really is coming over more as a rant!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Greg Smith]

I took a G'Vrahn fleet to the first Mongoose 2e tourney. The two fleets that killed it were Demos swarms.

 

[katadder]

btw we all know its overpowered, its just trying to create a viable choice.

This line is so... wrong and arogant, especially when you look at poll results.

Why do some (mostly centauri) players want so much to bring the G'Vrahn down to Bin'Tak and G'Quan league? So at high prority levels Narn have one nice ship and so many weak ones. And you insist on comaring G'Vrahn to Bin'Tak, just to (not to be shy of words) nerf it.

Especialy Centauri players look silly voting for the nerf, with their Demos and Liati.

Again, look at poll - majority has spoken: Leave the ship alone.

Edit: And yes, I am saying that Bin'Tak is a weak choice. But that is Bin'Tak problem, not G'Vrahn.

its not a nerf as such as making the bin'tak a more viable choice. as i have said I am also a narn player. and i would guess that most people wanting it to stay as is are narn players (which is actually how i voted anyway but have differant opinions now so change it to 36-34 vote).

also most centauri players would agree the demos needs bringing down to the vorchans level.

and how can you say the bin'tak is weak? compared to a g'vrahn, sure. compared to most other war ships, i think not. I am sure the EA would love a ship like the bin'tak. so would most of the league races and even the centauri as the octurion suffers from being slow and short ranged.
the bin'tak is around #4 on the warships with g'vrahn 1st, warlock 2nd and sharlin variants in 3rd. it is a very good ship but rarely used because the g'vrahn is there

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I was surprised that you took an Octurion at the weekend (did anyone else?) as IMHO it is a poor War level ship - and that I think is the real problem! It's not necessarily that the G'Vrahn is too good, it's that the Octurion is too bad. The beam weapon on the Liati whilst 2AD down on the Octurion is DD - so the sum of 2 Liati is greater than a single Octurion. Plus, just because the fluff says that the Liati is a "specialized white star killer", doesn't mean that it shouldn't be excellent in other roles (which patently it is!).

I disagree that 2 Dargan isn't a good counter to a G'Vrahn - they are faster and just as manouverable, and whilst you can partially mitigate against stealth, if it works you can get on the tail of a G'Vrahn and it would find it very hard to shake them. Given the G'Vrahn has no aft weapons of any note, this would make it a relatively easy kill *if* you can get behind and I contend that there is a reasonable chance that this could happen.

If you want to keep calling the G'Vr ahn broken, by all means do, but it is coming over more and more as an emotive response and is certainly not borne out by the (current) results of this poll! It really is coming over more as a rant!

Regards,

Dave

Emotive response? You've so far failed to address the issues raised with the G'Vrahn. So it's front-focused and vulnerable to attacks from the rear? With the range on its sick front firepower it never needs to leave the table edge. Its interceptors - totally out of character for the Narn - can take the worst off any salvo most any Centauri ship can level at it. In the example above, two Dargans vs one G'Vrahn, you get to intercept every attack but the handful of beam dice. The Rutarians carried are both outnumbered by your Frazis and made worthless by your e-mines. The Dargans also lack decent AF defences making your Frazis handy for negating the Dargans' stealth at close range.

I maintain that the G'Vrahn either needs to lose some firepower up front or lose some of its fancy high-tech traits, or lose some damage. As it is it has no significant weakness and represents too much of a stride forward in Narn military technology.

 

[Foxmeister]

its not a nerf as such as making the bin'tak a more viable choice. as i have said I am also a narn player. and i would guess that most people wanting it to stay as is are narn players (which is actually how i voted anyway but have differant opinionsnow).

Same here. I voted that it was fine as it is, but I really have warmed to the idea of giving the Bin'Tak the SL e-mine and the G'Vrahn the one-shotter, because it serves both purposes of making the G'Vrahn a little weaker (but not nerfing) whilst making the Bin'Tak a more attractive choice.

If you just removed the e-mines from the G'Vrahn, I'm of the opinion that it's still a more attractive choice than the Bin'Tak because once the Bin'Tak has shot its wad, the G'Vrahn is just plain better. It also fits better in my mind - a ship the size and speed of the Bin'Tak should clearly be able to carry more than a single e-mine loadout, whereas a single shot e-mine fits more with the ethos of the G'Vrahn.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Foxmeister]

I maintain that the G'Vrahn either needs to lose some firepower up front or lose some of its fancy high-tech traits, or lose some damage. As it is it has no significant weakness and represents too much of a stride forward in Narn military technology.

And I maintain that currently more than 50% of poll respondents don't agree with you *at all*, and a further 24% advocate far less drastic "fixes", so clearly your stance is a minority view at best!

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but so is everyone else who has voted in the poll, or commented directly in the thread and ultimately should any such poll/thread actually result in any changes to the game, it should reflect the opinion of the majority and not a minority no matter how significant it may be!

Regards,

Dave

 

[katadder]

the simplest fix would be the e-mine swap. i may advocate the loss of interceptors but this is an example of the sharing tech of members of the ISA so maybe keeping them is ok.

 

[David Anla Shok']

btw we all know its overpowered, its just trying to create a viable choice.

This line is so... wrong and arogant, especially when you look at poll results.

Why do some (mostly centauri) players want so much to bring the G'Vrahn down to Bin'Tak and G'Quan league? So at high prority levels Narn have one nice ship and so many weak ones. And you insist on comaring G'Vrahn to Bin'Tak, just to (not to be shy of words) nerf it.

Especialy Centauri players look silly voting for the nerf, with their Demos and Liati.

Again, look at poll - majority has spoken: Leave the ship alone.

Edit: And yes, I am saying that Bin'Tak is a weak choice. But that is Bin'Tak problem, not G'Vrahn.

Well, speaking as one of those Centauri players... who also is a Narn player, some of us have a pretty balanced point of view. Making observations about a ships relative qualities and postulating possible changes is hardly a criminal offense

 

[Ripple]

The poll is very close, so I wouldn't say that there is a clear majority either way. I also wouldn't use such a poll as definitive evidence that a change needs to be made or not. Most of those voters are not commenting to back up their positions with much evidence one way or the other.

It's interesting, the number of other war ships that are considered weak for their level when discussed along side the G'Vrahn.

Anyway...

Ripple