A G'Vrahn thread!**now with added poll!**

[Target]

To Target -

Lets apply that same examination technique to the Liati.

Marathon Advanced Cruiser vs Liati Advanced Cruiser.
- Both Battle Level
Marathon is Speed 12 to Liati Speed 14, Liati wins.

Marathon is 2x45 turns, to Liati 2x90 Agile turns. Liati wins.

Marathon has more hull, damage, and crew (Though the difference in Damage is marginal, a mere 14, at hull 6), and has 1 more troop. Marathon wins.

Marathon has 2 Auroras (Or T-bolts), to Liati with 2 Rutarians. Liati wins.

Marathon has 25 inch boresighted beam with 4 TD AD, to Liati with 18 inch FORWARD ARC 4 DD, Precise AD. Because the beam is forward arc, and Precise means it causes crits like mad, the Liati wins

Marathon has 4 AD Advanced Missile Rack, and 12 inch 6/10/4 TL AD of Pulse Cannon, to Liati's 10 inch 8 AD Forward Arc ACC, DD, SAP weapon and 12 inch turreted 8 AD ACC, DD weapon. Because it has 2x90A, the forward arc limitation doesn't mean a thing, compared to the 2x45 of the Marathon, which will require an "All Stop and Pivot" or "Come About" in order to bring the Forward Arc Missiles into play. And there's no way the Pulse Cannons will drop a Liati on their own. The Liati wins by a smaller margin.

Marathon is AF 4, IN 4, Comp to Liati AF 2, Dodge 4+, Comp. AF 4 doesn't mean crap against Rutarians, their best weapon is 4 inch range (2 AD of DD, P at 4 inches). IN 4 is okay, but it will only stop 8 AD, and that's if the Marathon player is extraordinarily lucky. If he stopped anymore, I'd recommend he go out and buy a lottery ticket, because that day is -his- lucky day. But Dodge 4+ is what takes the cake. What little the Marathon can get into arc on the Liati will be dodged. Liati wins.

With some amazing luck on the Marathon's part in getting a boresighted beam shot, and some dazzlingly poor dodge rolls on the Liati, the Marathon can win. Otherwise, completely outclassed. Unless, of course, you get the amazing luck of the Liati failing a dodge roll, then you getting a 6/6 crit with the Pulse Cannon of a Marathon before the Marathon is dead. If you do, buy some lottery tickets, you'll win.

So, the Liati is vastly superior to the Marathon, a supposedly equivalent Battle-level hull. "Nerf teh Liatiz!"

Agree 100%, The Liati is far superior to Marathon. It's the turns + boresight & thats why the G'Varhn is vastly superior to a Warlock.
Marathon can change it's missle loadout to help a little but i'd say it would get it's butt kicked.. An Apollo is a better option & we all know this cause she can adjust her weapon loadout to suit the battle & the Marathon is what i'd call a specialist ship when at that lvl.
The only battle level ship close to the liati is WS Gunship.
I'd say you analyzed the Liati vs Marathon right, the G'Varhn vs Warlock wrong.
Precise beams are pretty deadly. I'd almost say that she could lose the DD off her beams but that would leave the Gunship at the top something would need to happento it as well. If people played me with my beam rolls it wouldn't be a problem.
But then i've always felt points would be better but then they also might wrong but thats whole different kettle of fish & probably shouldn't of even mentioned it.

 

[GhostRecon]

lgryszka did the Warlock vs G'vrahn comparison.

Im not sure what to do to the Liati that would balance it out. Perhaps a reduction in the beam AD... something, however, needs a bit of reducing.

I actually prefer the Marathon to the Apollo, despite the Marathon's apparent deficiencies, its the best "Ship of the Line" for the Crusade EA (Though Im not quite sure what that says about the apparent deficiencies in Crusade EA, their well-known weakness in low priority battles) in my opinon, plus I rather like the model.

The Apollo hull just doesn't have raw firepower... its missiles can crit pretty well, but past that to do more damage you have to get closer, which is not exactly the best of options with the plodding Apollo.

 

[Target]

lgryszka did the Warlock vs G'vrahn comparison.

Not sure either, maybe 5+ dodge it & the same with the Gunship so it's evens out. The gunship might need a few hits though. Big ships like them shouldn't have better dodges than some fighters even if they are heavy fighters. Ships also shouldn't be faster than fighters either.

 

[Gunnvaldr]

As A Centauri player and a EA:C player, the G'Vrahn is not broken imo. It does out shine the the other G' classes to the point my buddy who play Narns never fields them any more. He's a big Var'Nic and Ka'toc user, and absolutely loves the G'V since it is since it is a bigger version of a Var'nic in his opinion. In which I have to agree with. I admit the interceptors and the SL E-mines annoy me but I still face one. Just somewhat sad he doesn't ever use a Bin'tak or any of the G' unless we use ISD.

This seems off topic but what really bugs me when I look at the G'Vrahn is when I used Drazi's for the first time in a vassal campaign and my Fireraptor was an utter disappointment. Gives me such a bitter taste of being the underdog when I look at the G'V, which leads me to believe when you feel you have a poor war choice, you naturally either say the other factions ship is broken or your ship just sucks. In this case I say the Fireraptor wasn't done very well, shame I like the model and the Firehawk is impressive to me.

 

[Tolwyn]

My 2 cents:

The G'Vrahn totally outclasses the Bin'Tak. Why take a ship which is lumbering, has one shot E-Mines and only one turn, while the other has only slightly less damage points and higher manouverability?

On our E-CW event no Narn player fielded the Bin'Tak anymore as it has become only a viable choice in games where the G'Vrahn is not allowed.
IMO the G'Vrahn need some nerving or power the Bin'Tak up.

I don't want to add to the EA VS Liati thing. The only thing I mentioned during our weekend was, that EA got slaughtered by nearly every other race.

 

[Da Boss]

lgryszka did the Warlock vs G'vrahn comparison.

Not sure either, maybe 5+ dodge it & the same with the Gunship so it's evens out. The gunship might need a few hits though. Big ships like them shouldn't have better dodges than some fighters even if they are heavy fighters. Ships also shouldn't be faster than fighters either.

Give them 5+ dodge and they will not be worth it IMHO - esp the Liati - its has less damage than many raid level ships and no adaptive armour. 4+ dodge is needed I believe to make them viable - both ships live on the edge of destruction as it is............they are very very nasty but also killiable - I should know had it done lots - and even with GEG on them :shock:

I am happy with the G'Vrahn, Warlock and the Liati as they are.......maybe do something with the Bin'Tak to make it worthwhile - not sure - Will ask Greg as he is our Narn player

 

[Jim?]

I hear all these rants about the "broken" G'vrahn, then read these battle reports where Marathons, Omegas, Apollos, and even Warlocks are all butchered by Liatis like cattle to the slaughter and everyone sits there and refuses to acknowledge that something might just be wrong with them?

To be fair, that was me getting very lucky (which I did say in my report). I used the Liatis' speed and agility to their full advantage, but the results of those games were as much an artifact of the new beam rules as anything else.

I did say before 2e came out, that this continuous 4+ to hit would result in blind luck winning games rather frequently, the chances of pulling of a devastating beam stream are much higher than they would be under the 1e beam rules.

I'm not saying the G'Vrahn's broken, to be honest I really don't think it is. But if the Liati's broken, then so are Whitestars. 2 of them can do easily as much damage as a Liati, they can also scout for themselves. In fact, if the Liati's broken, then virtually the whole ISA list is, too.

I don't even think that dropping the firepower of the Liati is the solution to the "problem", the problem (if there is one) is fast ships getting 2 90 degree turns. If you want to change something, give them all 3/45 turns instead of 2/90s.

 

[Ripple]

One thing to keep in mind all you folks doing comparisons, in almost every case in this game, two ships of a lower priority will kill the higher one, just due to maneuver AD. That is if there is much comparison between the races at all. Drazi tend to not do well in these examples, nor Abbai above skirmish.

G'V being a two turn bores sighted ship is a big deal, especially as it is backed up with a front arc beam that is tops. That is a lot of opportunity to roll up. With the new beam mechanic the ship can easily turn the tide of an entire battle in a turn.

Broken... hard to say... way better than anything else the Narn do, yeah... to much so in my opinion. Narn are generally not maneuverable, they tend to be short ranged on most guns and bulk dependent. You want to change that, I'd think one thing in a class would be fine, but this ship fixes them all at once, and that is perhaps too much.

Ripple

 

[katadder]

as i said before, this is not a g'vrahn versus liati topic much as ghost recon seems to think it is. and its not centauri players asking for the nerf, its actually most people including narn players.
yes i played centauri at the weekend but had no problems with g'vrahns but then i turned up behind them with an adira and killed one in one shot. I play all the big 5 and some of the league fleets too. I own a G'vrahn and a Bin'tak for my rather large narn fleet and if i want one war level ship there is no comparison.
this debate shouldnt be about g'vrahns versus liaties (which btw most smaller ships will beat a bigger one 2v1 anyway butthats another topic) it should be about g'vrahn v bin'taks and where they both fit in the same fleet.
ghost recon you really need to stop bringing up the liati, saying its should be slow and powerful doesnt fit, the centauri have slow and powerful but they are also known for fast and manouvrable. every ship in the centauri list at battle has a role and thats why we saw as many dargans, secundus and primus at the E/C war as we did liatis (probably more primus/secundus in fact), however every narn player had a g'vrahn and we didnt see one bin'tak. what does that say? that centauri players realise differant ships have differant roles at battle level, but narn players realise there is only one ship to use at war level.

FYI i actually voted to keep the g'vrahn as is, but later though about swapping its e-mines with the bin'tak to make people think which is the more useful ship.

 

[Foxmeister]

I think the best place to discuss the Liati is in a separate thread. I do think it's a discussion worth having, but tying the two ships together in this fashion is inappropriate.

It's certainly true that the Narn have only one real War level choice at present, and that is the G'Vrahn. Whilst there are two other ships at that priority level, neither of them is going to be the ship of choice at present unless you're a real "flavour" player, or service dates are in use. Even at Armageddon level, I'm sure most Narn players would favour two G'Vrahn over a single Ka'Bin'Tak, though that is true for many Armageddon level ships!

However, it's very easy to take a look at a single ship in isolation and make snap judgements as to its level of ability as a single unit when in reality you do need to look at the fleet as a whole.

For example, when you look at the Centauri specifically, they have no compelling War level ships at all, since there is absolutely no comparison between the Octurion and what they can get at Battle level for 1 War point. Of course, it's also a fair argument that none of the Narn Battle level ships are very compelling choices either since two Var'Nics are more than a match for a G'Quan or any of its Battle variants - and I really want to love the G'Quan!

At the time of writing this, the poll is definitely swaying towards to leaving the G'Vrahn alone or making the e-mine one shot (by a 3-1 margin), and I'm sure most of the one-shot brigade would have no problem giving the SL trait to the Bin'Tak. Taking it much further than this and without giving a nod to the G'Quan would almost certainly result in a significant reduction of Narn players, and there are already too many under represented races in the game IMHO.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I think one Octurion stacks favourably against two Primus cruisers, actually. Not so sure about the Dargan since it gets better fighters and stealth. One Octurion is certianly harder to kill than two Liatis, although its speed is woefully inadequate in comparison.

 

[katadder]

octurion could probably do with 24" beam and maybe some interceptors.

 

[Foxmeister]

I think one Octurion stacks favourably against two Primus cruisers, actually.

Not sure where you come up with that idea from, but in my book 2 x 18" 6AD precise beams is better than one 18" 6AD precise beam, and when combined with a total damage rating of 104 for 2 Primus vs 70 for a single Octurion, I'd much rather face 1 Octurion than 2 Primus any day of the week!

Sorry! O/T again!!!

Regards,

Dave

 

[katadder]

the octurion has better secondaries which go in its favour. also has better side and rear guns so once the fight comes about into manouvering then it suddenly gets interesting.
octurion on the front gets 4 more ion cannon AD and an additional 12 matter cannon. down the flanks and rear it gets its matter cannon. it also has a command score so should win init more often.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

That's pretty much what I was going on, yeah. I know most people only think in terms of beams, but the Centauri don't have that luxury any more... :wink:

 

[Foxmeister]

That's pretty much what I was going on, yeah. I know most people only think in terms of beams, but the Centauri don't have that luxury any more... :wink:

Each to their own, but it isn't just about beams! Two maneuver units, two critical "soaks". Two Primus and 1 Octurion are directly comparable, and I know which I would prefer to take. YMMV of course! Also, when spending that War point, you've artificially restricted your comparison to two Battle level ships of the same type. What about:

Primus/Liati
Primus/Dargan
Dargan/Liati

IMHO, any of those combinations is probably stronger than 2 Primus, and almost certainly more bang for your War point than a single Octurion.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

@ GhostRecon.

First of all, my arguement is with the G'Vrahn as it is, as a war level ship. For goodness sake, look at it, there are no weaknesses to succesfully exploit. And by your own statement you have contradicted yourself with regards to the Liati, you said it is the elimination of all centauri weakness bar one, its damage score and how succesful emines will be. Forgive me for appearing to steal your crown of idiocy but I believe that counts as two weaknesses.

Secondly, if you'd read the other threads, before jumping into this one and going straight down katadders throat, you would have found ME stating that I wouldn't argue with tweaking the Liati. Even though this thread is about the G'Vrahn and perhaps the Bin'Tak, YOU have turned this into a general rant about ships that you don't like either, I think you're behaving in a very hypocritical manner. But for arguements sake let me say that I wouldn't object to the liati turns being made 2 45, to keep consistency with the vorchan, and have the liati as the logical progression of the vorchan hull to a battle level ship. So in fact you'll find that I am not screaming blue murder, saying YOU CAN'T NERF MY LIATI, quite the contrary.

So before you rip my head off, and fail at trying to use my own arguement against me, read what I've said. So far, the rest of us have managed to have a debate about this, and while I may have a strong opinion, there are plenty of others advocating their opinions as well. So far you're the only thats been a complete arse about it.

Although its a very childish saying; here I think it applies quite well. "Get your facts straight pal."

 

[Da Boss]

@ Ghost Recon

I presume that you had also read my posts saying that I thought both G'Varns and Liatis are BOTH just fine and I have not in fact screamed about anything as yet. Even the Gaim.............

 

[Drozak]

My biggest concern is that the Bin'Tak totally sucks compared to the G'V.
Thats sad, very sad.
People laugh at me when i bring a Bin'Tak to the table and that just dont seems right.

Maybe its for marketing reasons that you push your new designs.
But i think its just another balancing issue common to the priority level system.

 

[Johnny D]

G'Vrahn is hard but comparable to other strong war ships.
Sadly as has been pointed out the Bin Tak is no where near as good.
Due to service dates i don't mind that too much, except the e-mines being 1 shot.
Just that 1 change would make the bin'tak a much more worthy choice.
That said I've say the same about the even more hopeless G'quann cruiser.
Even if they lost a dice or two it would at 1 stroke make them much more viable than either of them are currently.