5th preview is up

[MongooseMatt]

I have to agree with you, Steve. I also think that it's important to voice our concerns about the product - what better way for MG to have a finger on the pulse of what old RQ fans are looking for? So I hope people will continue to voice opinions - that's what a forum is all about!

Indeed.

However, during the earliest days of playtesting, we quickly recognised that there was a hard core of RQ fans who saw their edition (I, II or III) as the Truth, the Way and the Light. _Nothing_ we could change would have made the game better in their eyes - in effect, what they wanted was a reprint of an old rules set which, to our mind, would have been a tragic waste.

If you are hooked on, say, the Resistance Table or total hit points, you are going to get a feeling of disappointment with the new game. However, we are also confident that 80% of the players who feel that way will grow to like the game once they start actually _playing_ it. Because those old rules are not exactly gone - the mechanics have merely been removed and replaced with something slicker and shinier. You can still affect people in all sorts of ways other than hit points, for example, but the mechanics require no book-keeping at all now, instead of the literal 'double' book-keeping of the past.

The spirit of RuneQuest is still there. But it plays a lot quicker and smoother now. . .

 

[MongooseMatt]

A change that I find interesting is the seeming replacement of several skills with broad skills. Listen and spot, for instance, seem to fall into perception, as hide and move quietly seem to fall into stealth as a single skill. I am uncertain if that simplification will make the game better or not. Play will tell.
It does avoid the complications when moving/hiding, and will narrow the number of skills to advance per adventure. But, there was joy in using and raising multiple skills per adventure.

The broadening of skills was something we learned during our D20 work (see Lone Wolf, for example), and have found it works very well. Your example of hiding and moving is a classic situation that it resolves. On the other hand, the new RQ gets the best of both worlds, because of the advanced skills. Everyone gets a chance to do something in a situation, precisely because of the broad nature of the skills, but the advanced set, for those taking the trouble to build them up, will offer very distinct advantages. On top of that, they are not in saet categories, so you can literally make a new advanced skill in anything - 97% in Camel-Worrying, for example. . .

 

[MongooseMatt]

One of the things I liked most about the earlier BRP-based versions of the game was the complexity of the system. No, that's not the right word, because it really wasn't all that complex. The intricacy of the system.

If that is what you are after, give this game a chance, as that is _exactly_ what we were aiming for. Not a wordy rules set, as we wanted something that would fit easily into 100-odd pages. However, we also wanted a system that was challenging to master and rewarded a solid use of tactics.

Give it a try. I don't think you will be disappointed. . .

 

[MongooseMatt]

GM; "You fall down 100 ft. cliff, and take 25 points of damage."
GM; "..as the spell is cast, a bolt of lighting erupts from his hand and envelops you, making you scream in pain, but leaves no visible damage, and leaves you weakened. You take 10 points of damage representing your weakened state"
GM; "The sword leaves a wound that will not stop bleeding. You loose 1 HP each round due to bleeding."

But you are assuming we just hacked out the mechanic and stopped there.

Suppose we then went on to replace the mechanic with something else that could handle all the situations you just described?

Oh, and if you fall 100 ft. in the new RQ, you are _not_ walking away. . .

 

[MongooseMatt]

Lets not worry about creature traits. They're just a convenient way of batching up special abilities, so that the same ability doesn't have to be described multiple times. That way, we get more out of those 120 pages. Nice one!

Indeed - we are very keen on traits here at Mongoose (as anyone who has seen our miniatures games will know). They not only save space and reduce the number of rules players have to remember, but they also function as a balance mechanism throughout the game's development. Anyone who went through all the permutations of Fearless in the old 40k wil know what I mean. . .

 

[SteveMND]

That's fair enough, but its also not what you based your objections on earlier. It looked like you were simply DnD phobic, and resented anything that could be interpreted as being vaguely like it. I mean, how exactly is the ability to run up walls oversimplifying the game? Your point seemed to be "it has a faint connection to DnD. Bin it!"

I think you are thinking of somebody else here on the boards; you were responding to one of my quotes in your post, but I'm hardly D&D-phobic. I actually like the d20 system, for what it is.

I think it would be unfair to condemn the system until we've seen it. there will be some bits about which we are not happy. You can't please everyone.

I think there is more than enough material in the 20+ pages we've seen so far to make a reasonable assesement of the game. And I'm not condemning it; enough material has been released that I can tell it's just not for me. But liked I said, clearly a lot of other people like the direction the game took, so Mongoose must have done something right there.

I do appreciate Matt's comments, though.

 

[kintire]

It was another [poster who expressed the DnDphobia, but you followed up with a post I interpreted as agreement. My apologies if I misunderstood: I've reread the section and it isn't as clear as I thought first time through.

I'm still unconvinced that the previews have given us nearly enough to judge the game's direction though.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I'm still unconvinced that the previews have given us nearly enough to judge the game's direction though.

I can tell you they haven't We have posted just enough to give a flavour and, more importantly, give some hints. What we have intentionally steered away from is giving any previews that show the raw intracacies of the game, and how they join together.

Some things are better waiting for

 

[SteveMND]

I'm still unconvinced that the previews have given us nearly enough to judge the game's direction though.

Well, I make no claims about the game as a whole. The game as a whole may be quite good, and many people may like it.

However, when Mongoose provides 20+ essentially random pages pulled from their book, and I pretty much end up finding something on each I'm not fond of, I think I can safely say the game is not for me.

 

[homerjsinnott]

Improvement rolls
Improving what? Skills are improved by rolling over the current skill

Skill modifier was added to the improvement roll.

Skill lvl.
'lvl'? What level are you talking about?

Sorry, I used a similar word to %age.

Fewer acrobatic rapier-wielding Dwarfs... better and better!

These are a few you can't use if you are an average DEX Dwarf (from RQIII).
Battle Axe 1 or 2 handed (smiles).
Main Gauche
Fighting Claw
War/Great Hammer (sniggers)
Single stick
Quarterstaff
Bastard Sword, 1or 2 handed (laughs out loud)
Scythe



Missle weapons... Dont try to use anything thats not a crossbow OK.

skill lvl ceilings for runepriest, socerers and shamans.
Assuming they still exist! And by that I mean both the DEX limits and the cult positions...

No rune priest, shaman or sorcerors, my! that will be interesting, getting rid of three of the most basic concepts of the game, that I have got to see.
Or if they don't and can then spend all day practicing their non-cult skills.

Pay close attention now, there's a quiz at the end!

Step Away From The Sarcasm. I Repeat, Step Away From The Sarcasm.
It doesn't seem to be loaded but it may go off in your face.

What's wrong with the D12? RQ1 started out with the D12, you should be happy Mongoose is returning to the roots of RQ!
Whats wrong with 2D6? which fits better with all the other rolls.
But I repeat, what's wrong with the D12?.

I just told you. There's a better fit.

And these the arguments you have to damn the game? Sounds like you just wanted a verbatim reprint of the old system. It's not. You want the old one, fine, this is the new one. The world moves on. Do you want to move on with it? (that's the quiz, by the way).

Did I say I damned the game? I thought I expressed some disagreement with parts of it.
I'm sorry that you as a play tester don't like it that I don't like some parts of the game. It seems as though you don't understand that we all had different expectations of what the new RQ was going to be like.

 

[MongooseMatt]

But should an _average_ Dwarf be able to use one without penalty anyway?

 

[homerjsinnott]

It was another [poster who expressed the DnDphobia, but you followed up with a post I interpreted as agreement. My apologies if I misunderstood: I've reread the section and it isn't as clear as I thought first time through.

I'm still unconvinced that the previews have given us nearly enough to judge the game's direction though.

No, it was me you were thinking of. I don't hate D&D, I despise it. Sure I have a bit of a nostalgia for it now and then, but then I play it and can't stop laughing at how crap it is, even now. Some of the invenion that goes into the settings monsters and class is great, but when you look at the core system ...

 

[homerjsinnott]

But should an _average_ Dwarf be able to use one without penalty anyway?

So fruit knives are in order then? Still fearsome, but...


Well a 1H hammer (a Warhammer) seems reasonable.
Whats the point in having a huge STR if you can't use a heavy weapon (within reason) without a penalty?

Edited for quotes thingy, man they are tricky!

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Skill modifier was added to the improvement roll.

A couple of percent, hardly significant.

'lvl'? What level are you talking about?

Sorry, I used a similar word to %age.

Again, a couple of percent. You're clutching at straws here...

These are a few you can't use if you are an average DEX Dwarf (from RQIII).

A couple of those I'll grant you (but Main Gauche? Nope...). However, as Matt says, they CAN still use them

Missle weapons... Dont try to use anything thats not a crossbow OK.

OK by me too.

No rune priest, shaman or sorcerors, my! that will be interesting, getting rid of three of the most basic concepts of the game, that I have got to see.

HeroQuest did it, other than retaining some of the names for purely social status, and no game effect nor restriction. And they are NOT concepts of the game, they are concepts of the setting - a setting HeroQuest has been said to be a far better fit to.

Or if they don't and can then spend all day practicing their non-cult skills.

I seem to remember the limits applying only to non-cult skills as well. In which case, fine!

But I repeat, what's wrong with the D12?.

I just told you. There's a better fit.

"It just is" isn't an answer - WHY is it better?

I'm sorry that you as a play tester don't like it that I don't like some parts of the game. It seems as though you don't understand that we all had different expectations of what the new RQ was going to be like.

Actually, as a playtester, I quite definitely decided it wasn't for me either. But not for the trivial reasons you've quoted! Really, you have decided against a game based on THESE arguments?

Wulf

 

[Wulf Corbett]

No, it was me you were thinking of. I don't hate D&D, I despise it. Sure I have a bit of a nostalgia for it now and then, but then I play it and can't stop laughing at how crap it is, even now. Some of the invenion that goes into the settings monsters and class is great, but when you look at the core system ...

Actually, although I also despise it, I believe the core system is excellent - stat+skill+modifiers vs a threshold. It's a pretty widespread mechanic now. Get rid of the peripheral systems - Armour Class, escalating Hit Points, restrictive classes, etc - and it works just fine. And then call it True20 :lol:

Wulf

 

[homerjsinnott]

Wulf,

You don't know why rolling a D12 is'nt the same as rolling 2D6? shame on you.

Improvement rolls? so 2-3%X what? maybe 150 times? In a characters life thats quite a few missed improvement rolls.


Oh, I can't be bothered. I don't have to justify any of my dislikes, there were things I disliked about RQII, RQIII, RQIV and Heroquest. That didn't mean I didn't play them or love them (never played that much RQIV) or try to make them better for me.

AND, total HP will be easy enough to reintroduce.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

You don't know why rolling a D12 is'nt the same as rolling 2D6? shame on you.

I know why they're different, I just don't see why one is better than the other in this situation.

Wulf

 

[MongooseMatt]

So fruit knives are in order then? Still fearsome, but...

For a marketstall owner, probably. . .

 

[MongooseMatt]

I know why they're different, I just don't see why one is better than the other in this situation.

Wulf

He is after the bell curve. However, once you decide it is good for one thing, you need to start looking at others, and that is where you run into problems.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

He is after the bell curve.

It seems so, but, once again, I don't actually see why it's better. Different, obviously, but it seems to me to be more a matter of choice.

Wulf