2nd Age Balazar

[atgxtg]

AHs edition was dead in the moment it appeared because of the lack of support. It was a failure like everything AH did with RQ and its other roleplaying game P&P. Stafford made a big mistake in giving them the RQ-licence.

Unfair. AH did support RQ3 at first, and then again during the RQ revival in the 90s. It is just that they didn't support it very well for very long. It started off fairly promising though. Yeah, AH did this with RQ and P&P, and the other RPGs that it had (such as James Bond, although Bond probably got the best support out of any 3rd party product supported by AH).
Stafford might have made a big mistake with AH, in retrospect. On the other hand, Chaosium was about to go under, despite good sales for RQ2, and AH was a bigger company that TSR , with better market penetration and gave RQ the potential to hit the big time, and compete with D&D. Greg was expecting better support that he got.

Who knows, twenty five years from now, we might be saying the same thing about giving Mongoose the RQ-liscence.

And the rest of the "releases" you named has been B/W Monographs of questionable qualtity and limited editions of old material. You cannot compare this to the new release of MRQ with its revised and streamlined game system and much support material. While monographs and reprints from are not very attractive for anyone except the most die-hard fan, a fully supported major release ala MRQ is.

Actually the quality isn't questionable. That's why it get reprinted. I can't compare it to MRQ's revised and streamlined system, yet. We all will in a couple of weeks. How attractive such books are to the causal gamer, yeah you got a point there. Then again, you would need to be a die-hard fan to even know that such books exisited, as you don't see them on the shelf at the local rpg store. But, I don't expect MRQ to do much better, at least in my area. I made special arragemenets to get my local gaming store to special order a copy of the rpg for me. Then I had to correct the owner when he thought it was from Avalon Hill. So the only people who are going to see the game in my area are the ones who know me and game with me.

Luckily for Mongoose, I do game with the owner of the local gaming store (we one of them, there are two stores in the area), and IF I like MRQ, and I run it, said owner will probably order copies for the store, as well as the other memebers of the gaming group.

But the only people who I see taking about the new edition of RQ and RQ players. Same way it's a;lways been.

Like I said, I've been playing RQ for decades.

While I agree that the majority of D&D players (mostly the teenagers) will stick with D&D, I think that the potential market is bigger than you think. For example we seem to speak about the US market. Here in Europe (especially Germany and Austria) the things are a little bit different. D&D is here big but it is not the No1 system I am not even sure if it is the No2.
Tenthousands of gamers here play Das Schwarze Auge, CoC or Midgard and not D&D. So we should decide if our discussion includes only the USA or other countries too.

I'm all for expaning out discussion to include the whole world (and beyond if there is gaming on other planets). I just don't know what it is like overseas. I do know what it is like the the USA. I aso am not sure what percentage of the RPG market the US makes up. That will make a big difference in what sort of enviromenet the game is geared towards. If the US comprieses the Lion's Share, then the US situatioin will factor in more significantly than if the US is just one market among many. I know the US is the killer market for DVDs, and is why DVD prices for Region 1 discs are half that than for other regiouns, but the rpg market is smaller.

BTW, I guess there is supposedly a BRP/Magic World deriative over in Germany that was expanded into its own stand alone RPG. It has gone through several edtions and is really big. Anyone remember the name?

Thats correct. I dont think that MRQ will convince die-hard fans of any system to change. But not everyone is die-hard. Many are influenced only by marketing or good support. And I think many people are playing d20 just because their favorite world is written with this system. (due to OGL) So if the publisher of this world decides to change the system they will go with him. Otherworld Creations did this already with Diomin. I dont know about their customer base, but at least they have 8 people in their company.

Maybe overseas. Around here most of the gamers don't even look at non d20 products. THe local gaming stores have a section for the D&D books that is twice that of the space for all the other rpgs combined. Getting people to even try an non d20 game is incredibly difficult. I kid you not, but I am sitting on a half dozen copies of RQ3, and even have been know to give out sets of the rules just to help draw in new players. It's that bad.


[qoute]Of these games I know Gurps, Harn and d6. Gurps is excellent but very cumbersome to play. too many rules. Definately not BRP. Harn is also excellent but only suited for Fantasy and tailored to Harnworld (which I dont like). d6 is suitable for the flair of Star Wars maybe, but its IMO not as intuitive as BRP and therefore I prefer the latter. So in theory the systems in your list (at least those I know) are good on their own, but they have their limitations. BRP doesnt have such a limitation. Its the perfect rule system. (well 90% perfect ) You can use every thinkable setting with it, with some modifications. Gurps comes close to it, but its full rules are too blown up. [/quote]

Well, I think you might be letter your fondness for BRP color (colour?) your thinking. With the exception of HArn, all the other RPGs I've mentioned (and there are more, I've got 30 boxes of RPGs packed away in my closet) have been used for multiple settings and work. While some prefer BRP to GURPS (I know I do), that is really a matter of personal prefercence. You can do with them what you can do with BRP. Time LOrds is perhaps the least limited system I've come across, but it nver got much notice. HERO system is the game system used for Champions and is probably GURPS major competitor here in the US. THe two games share some similariies in design and concept, but HERO is looser and more cinematic, wheras GURPS is more regimented and gritty.

One system I want to throw in is WFRP2. Good game, extremely well supported and you can use d% for combat and skill resolution. But sadly its only available for the Warhammer world.

I can't comment on WFRP2. I never read it, and didn't follow it. I aways viewed Warhammer as a vehicle to push lead (or pewter or plastic). The game might be good.

Nope. THe CODA stuff all sold very well. As for the reasons why Decipher shelved it, well I just read a new take on this, so I'll let that point drop. Essentially the problem was with Decipher is some fashion.
I am surprised you liked the D&D rules better than the CODA rules in LOTR though. CODA is a lot more flexible, and isn't class and level driven. But, that's your call. As for MIddle-Earth, well it was certainly well suited for plundering, since practically every fantasy RPG was based on it.

Really? I dont agree. I am sure that Middleearth is a very bad RP world due to the reasons below. Its good for just one thing. The Lord of the Ring story written by JRT. (and maybe as scenery for the movies too) Its totally artifical without the breath of life. Its like a piece of a very static piece of theater. (Besides that I think JRT is much overestimated as writer but thats rather personal and not valid for my argumentation) On the other hand a good fantasy setting needs one thing: LIFE. It should be full of opportunities. It should have struggling religions, magic for more than just 5 halfgods, a functionally economic system, and some interesting colorful cultures. These factors make good RP stories. Middleearth does not have any of those factors above, so its not good for RP. Literature maybe (if you like Tolkiens dry style), but not RP. Its no wonder that every RP game which tried to play in Tolkiens static world was a failure, while "colored" or complex fantasy worlds like Forgotten Realms and to some extent Glorantha too have been a success.

How do you judfe sucess and failure? ICE did very well with Middle-Earth as a setting for years-years during which Glorantha wasn't even on the shelves. How then is Middle-Earth a failure while Glorantha is a success?

I think you are letting your dislike of Tolkien alter your perspective of reality. ICE put out more MIddle-Earth products than there have been Glorantha and Forgotten Realms products combined.

As for the rest of your argument-I'm sorry you consider cultures that are based upon real world historical cultures to be artificial and lifeless. You are aware that Tolkien did base all the culture in Middle-Earth on histoical cultures-the same way he based the languages on jhistorical languages. D&D has gotten by for 30 years without a functional exconomic system . Magic was hardly as restricted in Middle Earth as you believe (every culture has some, it just that they don't call it magic. For example the elves don't consider a rope that ties itseelf to be magical, just well made), and many RPGs limit magic much more than ROlemaster, MERP, or CODA LOTR does.

I cannot follow this argument. Why should they give RQ another name? It plays like RQ, is licensed from Stafford, its first setting is 2nd age Glorantha. It would be an extremely bad marketing move not to use the name RQ.

My point was that they choose to use the RQ name to draw in the RQ players, rather than giving the game a differenet name. We don't know yet if it plays like RQ or not.

Sucess after the intial phase is going to depend of=n two things: 1) If the RQ players like it and continue to support it, and 2) Drawing in new players from D&D.

or 3) drawing in players from other systems (CoC for example)
or 4) drawing in normal fantasy fans which like to try out "one of those RPs" in one of the popular fantasy settings (Lankhmar for example, or Hyboria)

Sure, we agree on this too. It is just that in the US, the majoirty of gamers play D&D, so the majoirity of potential converts are from there. Drawing in players from other systems probably won't be enough. Drawing in normal fantasy fans is always good, but again difficult. Generally, the D&Ders get to them first, since that's what they have a better chance of bumping into. It is a lot more likely that a newbie will spot d20 Conan before RQ Conan. THe shelf space is just that heavilty dominated by D20. For instance, I can find D&D books at my local shopping malls, but haven't seen much else. Only WotC and White Wolf seems to have any sales outside of the RPG stores.

What is funny is that I used to see RQ2 at my local stores before the AH deal that was supposed to get RQ into more places.

Getting the D&D players is going to require a good draw.

Maybe, but not everything is D&D.

In Europe, perhaps. In the USA it might as well be. I used to run at gaming conventions. D&D games would get 20-30 tables, RQ (or any other RPG) got 2 tables. It's that bad. TO give you an idea, even the long term gamers that I've talked to about RQ have never heard of it. The only excepts are the people who I've gamed with, and that is only because I've run them in it.

An "award" at a D&D convention? (shrug) Sounds great. No seriously, one of the ways to success is the OGL. Its was important for the market penetration of d20 the last years and it will be important for MRQ. If not you can shoot a hole in my knee and pour milk in.

OGL is also what is killing d20 for many companies today. Too many companies competing for the same game D20 dollars. OLG was a desperate tactic to revive D&D. It worked, but it also means the D20 success doen't translate to Success for WotC. It didn't make any difference in market penetration over here, but it did get a lot of D&Ders that had moved onto other RPGs to switch back to D&D and buy new rulebooks. It also pretty much took 90% of the non d20 systems oyut of existience.

Hey, I would love to see RQ make a big splash and come back to the frontlines of the RPG industry. I'm not expecting it though. I suspect that, at best, MRQ will be as popular as RQ2. And that is at best. Then again, RQ3 did better over in Europe, at twice the price, than it did in the US.

 

[atgxtg]

While I agree that the majority of D&D players (mostly the teenagers) will stick with D&D, I think that the potential market is bigger than you think. For example we seem to speak about the US market. Here in Europe (especially Germany and Austria) the things are a little bit different. D&D is here big but it is not the No1 system I am not even sure if it is the No2. Tenthousands of gamers here play Das Schwarze Auge, CoC or Midgard and not D&D. So we should decide if our discussion includes only the USA or other countries too.

This is a very good point. My understanding is that BRP (and RQ specifically) have much bigger market shares in Europe than they do in the US. I know that when we were getting the horrible art in English RQ releases, the French books looked absolutely amazing. I wish I could read French. If so, I'd have imported those.

Does anyone have any idea the rpg market is around the world. For instance, is the fact that the majoirty of gamers in the USA being D&D devotees trasnalte to a majoirty worldwide, or just a majoirty in 20$% of the world market.

If MRQ "tanks" in the US, does that spell the kill of death for the game, or just a minor setback?

 

[Enpeze]

Who knows, twenty five years from now, we might be saying the same thing about giving Mongoose the RQ-liscence.

Maybe, but I dont think so. I am optimistic for MRQ. As msprange said:
"Don't give up hope - D&D is dominant, but it is not almighty. Other RPGs have grabbed market share time and again from the giant. At the end of the day, that is our aim - not to unseat D&D, just grab a little piece of the pie"

I'm all for expaning out discussion to include the whole world (and beyond if there is gaming on other planets). I just don't know what it is like overseas. I do know what it is like the the USA. I aso am not sure what percentage of the RPG market the US makes up.

This is an important question. If the market share in the US is 80% of the worlds roleplaying market then your points are more valid than mine. If it is just 20% then my points should have more weight.

BTW, I guess there is supposedly a BRP/Magic World deriative over in Germany that was expanded into its own stand alone RPG. It has gone through several edtions and is really big. Anyone remember the name?

BRP/Magic World? Do you mean the swedish fantasy game Drakar och Demoner? Its based on BRP AFAIK, but I never read its rules. Its quite popular in Sweden. In Germany there is no BRP fantasy game. (I suppose you mean with Magic World a fantasy setting)

One german game which has its roots in RQ back in the 80ties is Midgard. Unfortunately it has also other roots in AD&D. So the rules are "cumbersome" to say it friendly. But the world setting is excellent. Thats why it is popular in the german speaking area. (at least 10.000 players)

Maybe overseas. Around here most of the gamers don't even look at non d20 products. THe local gaming stores have a section for the D&D books that is twice that of the space for all the other rpgs combined. Getting people to even try an non d20 game is incredibly difficult. I kid you not, but I am sitting on a half dozen copies of RQ3, and even have been know to give out sets of the rules just to help draw in new players. It's that bad.

Thats very sad.

Well, I think you might be letter your fondness for BRP color (colour?) your thinking.

Is perfectly possible

I can't comment on WFRP2. I never read it, and didn't follow it. I aways viewed Warhammer as a vehicle to push lead (or pewter or plastic). The game might be good.

You should give it a look.

http://www.blackindustries.com/

Great artwork and interesting dark fantasy setting. The main business of GW was and is of course minis, but with WFRP2 they released a hammer game. And the support - great. Since 2 years they shoot out one fine book after the other. The game system is a little bit like BRP, with d100 for combat and skills. Its very deadly but players have more possibilities to save their butts than NSCs. So I consider it only "second" to BRP en par with Gurps. (Warhammer Fans please forgive me)

My point was that they choose to use the RQ name to draw in the RQ players, rather than giving the game a differenet name. We don't know yet if it plays like RQ or not.

They say that it plays like RQ. Why should they tell this, if it isnt? It would be devastating for their initial sales if they dont tell us the truth in this matter. So I am sure that it has the RQ feeling, as it is claimed by Mongoose.

In Europe, perhaps. In the USA it might as well be. I used to run at gaming conventions. D&D games would get 20-30 tables, RQ (or any other RPG) got 2 tables. It's that bad. TO give you an idea, even the long term gamers that I've talked to about RQ have never heard of it. The only excepts are the people who I've gamed with, and that is only because I've run them in it.

I understand. I think this could be very frustrating. Now I see why you are not that optimistic.

OGL is also what is killing d20 for many companies today. Too many companies competing for the same game D20 dollars. OLG was a desperate tactic to revive D&D. It worked, but it also means the D20 success doen't translate to Success for WotC. It didn't make any difference in market penetration over here, but it did get a lot of D&Ders that had moved onto other RPGs to switch back to D&D and buy new rulebooks. It also pretty much took 90% of the non d20 systems oyut of existience.

Its war. And WotC seems to be very good in this war. If the rumors I heard are right they will take back the OGL in the moment they release version 4.0. And even if they dont take it back, OGL will be for 3.5. and not for 4.0. So I am not sure if d20 survives in the long run. The companies are forced either to stay with it and release material for "older" versions of D&D or they change to another OGL rule system. Your valid point that WotC dont earn money with OGL d20 could mean that OGL MRQ could be used by many small RP-companies out there in the future.

Hey, I would love to see RQ make a big splash and come back to the frontlines of the RPG industry. I'm not expecting it though. I suspect that, at best, MRQ will be as popular as RQ2.

You are more optimistic than I thought. RQ2 was once No2 on the market. So this would very fine.

 

[mthomason]

If MRQ "tanks" in the US, does that spell the kill of death for the game, or just a minor setback?

It's pretty difficult to fail, really - theres X game stores in the world, and each will order Y copies of anything Mongoose release from their distributor. In turn the distributor knows approximately how many initial sales they'll get from any new Mongoose release, and will order that many from Mongoose. Mongoose get Z thousand copies printed, knowing how many their distributors usually order from them. Whether Joe Public buys them off the shelf of the game store doesn't really matter at this point - Mongoose have already gotten paid

Add in the fact it's using an existing licence, and you've already bumped up initial orders of the book by W% (I know I for one will be ordering two to three times as many copies of RQ at launch than I do of most new RPG releases, simply because I'm expecting above-average demand for it. I imagine most other stores will do the same)

By the time any long-term reports on the success (or otherwise) of RQ filter back, the chances are that all the currently announced products have all been written, printed, paid for, and sent to distribution. Therefore it'd take a pretty big disaster of some kind for the game to die early on, for example if the majority of retailers their entire stock of RQ sit on the shelf for the first three months without selling a single copy. From the amount of excitement I can gauge is present for this game, I really doubt it will fail to that extreme anywhere.

That said, I don't imagine it'll be a real threat to the D&D PHB, but I don't think anyone seriously expects it to. All it has to do to be a success is sell more than the average new RPG out there (and it almost certainly will)

 

[atgxtg]

If MRQ "tanks" in the US, does that spell the kill of death for the game, or just a minor setback?

It's pretty difficult to fail, really - theres X game stores in the world, and each will order Y copies of anything Mongoose release from their distributor. In turn the distributor knows approximately how many initial sales they'll get from any new Mongoose release, and will order that many from Mongoose. Mongoose get Z thousand copies printed, knowing how many their distributors usually order from them. Whether Joe Public buys them off the shelf of the game store doesn't really matter at this point - Mongoose have already gotten paid

Well, I know that the X stores in my area are under no obligation to order Y copies of anything Mongoose puts out. It would be pretty nice for Mongoose if that is how it worked. Just churn out a bunch of stuff and rake in the profits! Or produce fewer, more expericve books.

I think it is more along the lines of the stores order whast books they think will sell. I know it is that way at my local gaming shop. I know the owner was planning on onder Y copies of RQ and RQ COmpanion, with Y=0. I specialed ordered one of each, and maybe it might lead to future orders. I know I could have piurchased the books online or gotten the pdf version. I opted to go local both to support my local rpg store, and to bring MRQ to other peoples' attention. People lke the owner of the store. It might help, it might not.

 

[atgxtg]

I am optimistic for MRQ. As msprange said:
"Don't give up hope - D&D is dominant, but it is not almighty. Other RPGs have grabbed market share time and again from the giant. At the end of the day, that is our aim - not to unseat D&D, just grab a little piece of the pie"

I'm hopeful, but not as optomistic. I suspect that it is due to the differenet enviorments. I think going for a piece of the pie is an excellent idea, certainly a more realistic goal.

This is an important question. If the market share in the US is 80% of the worlds roleplaying market then your points are more valid than mine. If it is just 20% then my points should have more weight.

It is a important question. It will make a big difference it just what will be considered "successful". It will also make a difference on where the game is supported.

BRP/Magic World? Do you mean the swedish fantasy game Drakar och Demoner? Its based on BRP AFAIK, but I never read its rules. Its quite popular in Sweden. In Germany there is no BRP fantasy game. (I suppose you mean with Magic World a fantasy setting)

One german game which has its roots in RQ back in the 80ties is Midgard. Unfortunately it has also other roots in AD&D. So the rules are "cumbersome" to say it friendly. But the world setting is excellent. Thats why it is popular in the german speaking area. (at least 10.000 players)

Yes, I mean't both of them. I just sort of blurred them together in my memory. I never saw either of them, but read about them a couple years back while net surfing on RQ. I'm a bit curious about them, but I couldn't read them if I could find them.

My point was that they choose to use the RQ name to draw in the RQ players, rather than giving the game a differenet name. We don't know yet if it plays like RQ or not.

They say that it plays like RQ. Why should they tell this, if it isnt? It would be devastating for their initial sales if they dont tell us the truth in this matter. So I am sure that it has the RQ feeling, as it is claimed by Mongoose.

Well, for starters,I haven't read, seen or heard anyone say that they are realeasing a new edtion of a product and that it is going to suck. It can still happen, but no one ever says that.

Secondly, saying that it plays the same will help to ensure that the RQ players will be interested. If they told us that is played nothing like RQ they would loose the RQ fan base.

But, to be less cynical, it could also just be a matter of opinion. Just like there is an RQ2/3 schism. Some RQ2 players think RQ3 is too different. Others think the games are the same.

Considering the degree of change that we see in the previews, we know MRQ is different and will play differently. The big questions will be how differerntly, and how will the players react to these changes. We might love the changes, or not. We will have to see them first, and maybe even see how some of them run in play.

I understand. I think this could be very frustrating. Now I see why you are not that optimistic.

Yeah, I think our differenet outlooks really are due to the differences in our gaming enviornments. Where you are, it seems that it is farily easy to find players for games other than D&D. Where I am, that just ins't the case.

The real frustrating part for me is that I've spent years buying and running the sort of games that I want to play, but haven't gotten the chance. I've run all my firends in Glorantha, but only got to play in it once, and that was a playtest session for a convention, twenty years ago. I own lots of differenet rpgs, have rant most of them, but have played in only a handful. I can't get the chance to play any of them, but I could find a D&D group to game with in the timeit takes to make a phone call.

Now, that's frustrating. :evil: :evil:

Its war. And WotC seems to be very good in this war. If the rumors I heard are right they will take back the OGL in the moment they release version 4.0. And even if they dont take it back, OGL will be for 3.5. and not for 4.0. So I am not sure if d20 survives in the long run. The companies are forced either to stay with it and release material for "older" versions of D&D or they change to another OGL rule system. Your valid point that WotC dont earn money with OGL d20 could mean that OGL MRQ could be used by many small RP-companies out there in the future. [/quoote]

No, it's business. FOr what it's worth WotC seems a lot kinder than TSR was. I doubt WOtC could take back D&D with a 4.0 anyway. At this point in time, they no longer produce the bulk of D&D products, so I think any such move would just knock WotC out of the D&D market, not the reverse.

I was so suprised to learn that companies don't pay for an OLF or d20 liscense. Personally, I'd have charged a buck a book or some such, sat back and let everyone one else do the work and rake in the profits. THen I wouldn't care about selling supplments. Heck, I probably lower the price for the core books, give away free pdfs and generally act like the RPG version of a drug kingpin. Get the gaming junkies hooked, let other sell the product, just take my cut.

You are more optimistic than I thought. RQ2 was once No2 on the market. So this would very fine.

Not really, I'm just more cautious and literal minded than the flippancy of my post suggests. I did say, that at best it could do like RQ2. I'm expecting more of an RQ3 reaction . THe RQ fans will buy it, a few disgrunted D&Ders, some newbies. Hopefully it will secure enough of a niche to warrent contined support. Evenb with RQ2 was the No #2 game, 90% of the gamers I talked to never heard of it. I suspect the game will probably get more notice in Europe than in the US. So it is possible that both of our viewpoints might be proven correct![/i]

 

[MongooseMatt]

This is an important question. If the market share in the US is 80% of the worlds roleplaying market then your points are more valid than mine. If it is just 20% then my points should have more weight.

It used to be 80%. However, the US market has indeed been shrinking over the past 2-3 years, while the UK and European markets have been expanding for RPGs, to the extent that (for us), one of the UK distributors is probably our second largest customer, with many of the 'small' European distributors beginning to out pace the majority of the US market. For the first time, we are beginning to seriously consider a multi-lingual release for a couple of our games, which would simply shift the balance even further.

You Americans really need to buy more - you are letting the side down

 

[RMS]

I'm all for expaning out discussion to include the whole world (and beyond if there is gaming on other planets). I just don't know what it is like overseas. I do know what it is like the the USA. I aso am not sure what percentage of the RPG market the US makes up.

Maybe overseas. Around here most of the gamers don't even look at non d20 products. THe local gaming stores have a section for the D&D books that is twice that of the space for all the other rpgs combined. Getting people to even try an non d20 game is incredibly difficult.

Are you sure you aren't exaggerating for effect here...at least a bit. Sure, D&D is the biggest single game out there, and all the D20 stuff makes up the largest single portion of games at most stores. However, even Barnes & Noble, and similar book stores that carry only a small selection of games, have more non-D&D (more non-D20 even) items than D&D once you add up all the White Wolf, Shadowrun, GURPS, and some misc. stuff they have.

I've had a hard time getting people to play RQ, and have mentioned that before, but I've never had a hard time finding non-D&D or non-D20 groups. GURPS, HERO, CoC, etc. groups are all over the place and pretty easy to find. Our local game store has everything D&D/D20 you could want, and multiple copies, but it also has half-a-dozen copies of Burning Wheel, a few copies of Donjon, and similar small press games. I'm sure they'll carry everything for MRQ and will expect to see multiple copies of everything, which will probably move fairly fast out of there. (I'll admit that this is a better store than most people probably have access to, but any large city in the US will have a similar store or two around.)

Also, be careful trying to generalize your local scene to the entire country. The US is pretty big and there are always pretty large fluctuations in the market, for anything, across the country.

 

[andakitty]

Here in Seattle, the home of WOTC and a veritable hotbed of D&D, you don't find many RQ players. Just to see what would happen yesterday I posted a notice in a local yahoo game group for a 'testdrive' of MRQ at a local gamestore and there were three responses overnight. Well, well.

 

[Mikko Leho]

Here in Finland the biggest RPG/CCG/miniature/boardgame store chain called Fantasiapelit had the following top 10 list by january 2006:

1. Revised D&D Player’s Handbook 3.5
2. World of Darkness Rulebook
3. Vampire: The Requiem
4. Warhammer FRPG 2nd edition
5. Revised D&D Dungeon Master’s Guide 3.5
6. Revised D&D Monster Manual 3.5
7. Gehenna
8. GURPS Basic Set: Characters
9. D&D Complete Arcane
10. Ars Magica 5th edition

Translated RQ held place 12 :shock:

 

[mthomason]

Well, I know that the X stores in my area are under no obligation to order Y copies of anything Mongoose puts out. It would be pretty nice for Mongoose if that is how it worked. Just churn out a bunch of stuff and rake in the profits! Or produce fewer, more expericve books.

You need to read Matthew Sprange's recent commentary in S&P - it pretty much does work like that As long as the book fits into the "templates" that the distributors know they can sell to stores, they'll pick up a few thousand copies between them (I believe we're talking something like around 10-20 companies worldwide here). A book that doesn't fit the "template", such as a large, expensive, product will get examined more carefully before it gets picked up. A book that fits the "mould" of all the other RPG releases out at the moment will just slot in next to them unquestioned in a lot of cases.

Maybe I should rephrase my initial comment.

There's X stores who will each buy Y copies, automatically. Not that X represents every possible iteration of collection planetearth.gamestores
They are under no obligation to, other than the fact they want to keep their customers happy by having the book on the shelf when someone walks in looking for it.

More important is the fact the distributors order them by the crateload (they have to). If the product looks interesting and doesn't have a nasty history of never selling, distributors worldwide will automatically order a few thousand copies between them. Once upon a time they'd order anything from anyone who called themselves a publisher, but with the glut of d20 material being published by everyone and his dog nowadays they tend to be a little more selective (but not much - they'll still pick up any new release from an established publisher). Thats your initial print run sales seen to, and as long as you don't cock things up so badly that every store refuses to buy your next product from the distributors because of how badly the last one sold, you'll do it again, and again, and again.

A lot of the game stores (sadly, far fewer now than there used to be) I used to use had at least one copy of everything that came out recently on their shelves, in the hope that one day someone will buy it. The only store copy of Obscure Scifi RPG #532 can sit on the shelf a good couple of years before some bored individual wanders in looking for a copy and picks it up. Given the relative ease of finding what you want online, any store that doesn't operate like this isn't going to do a very good trade in RPGs and is going to alienate their customers - if you can't buy what you're looking for when you walk into a store, you tend to give that store a little minus in your head until when you do find somewhere that stocks the type of things you're always looking for you say "oh, that store is so much better, they always have the stuff I'm looking for, I'll go there from now on"

Unfortunately, there are a growing number of stores that work the way you've described - they won't order in anything unless people have already expressed an interest in it. These stores are shooting their own RPG sales in the foot because when someone does wander in randomly looking for a certain book they'll find it curiously absent because someone took down half of the bookshelves in the store in order to make more room for a table for people playing Magic.

While I can understand a store not automatically picking up a couple of copies of the fifteenth New Fantasy World Someone Invented in an Evening or a copy of Monster Collection #52152, there are certain things that anyone who says they stock RPGs needs to be stocking: D&D core books and recent releases, the majority of recent RPGs based on a licensed setting, at least the rulebook for Call of Cthulhu, and the core rulebooks published by Mongoose for their various RPGs. Anyone without those is most likely running a CCG/CMG/Merchandise store with an additional shelf or two of random things at the back. Even the comic book store I used to frequent had a good four or five metres of RPG shelving and at least one copy of absolutely everything that had just been released - and they were primarily a comic store. And yes, most of the very same books would still be on the very same shelf five months later - but they provided them so people could have a selection. I'd go in and browse everything on the shelf and pick up whatever book seemed most interesting that week to add to my RPG library - if they hadn't had the books on the shelf they'd lose the "random browsing" sales.

Anyone who claims to be an RPG stockist and doesn't automatically stock the new RQ probably needs to reexamine what exactly it is their store sells, because they're very likely driving away their RPG customers. How long until the RPG shelves are gone for good and people have to resort to asking to have them ordered in specially? If I went to my local bookstore for a specific novel and they didn't have it on the shelf I'd leave in disgust.

It is a sad fact, of course, that many stores *are* stepping back from RPGs as a main source of revenue and turning to things such as CCGs. We used to buy every new RPG release, now it's just every D&D release, CoC, licensed settings, and the Mongoose core games (already stated as being in my opinion the bare minimum you can carry and still claim to sell RPGs), plus the occasional World of Darkness release if it looks interesting enough (that really did fall through the floor sales-wise after they "revamped" it)

So in fact stores are under an obligation to buy RQ - an obligation to their customers who may wish to surprise them by actually buying a copy, and an obligation to themselves to stop their customers going somewhere else when the book they're after is not there. Obviously, if the trend in your area is such that it wouldn't even be considered, then I apologize for over-generalizing, but over in the UK I'd find it unimaginable for an RPG store not to have a copy of RQ on the shelf (other than if they'd sold out at the release)

 

[mthomason]

Here in Finland the biggest RPG/CCG/miniature/boardgame store chain called Fantasiapelit had the following top 10 list by january 2006:

2. World of Darkness Rulebook
3. Vampire: The Requiem

Ah, so you're who are keeping White Wolf sales alive

 

[MongooseMatt]

Unfortunately, there are a growing number of stores that work the way you've described - they won't order in anything unless people have already expressed an interest in it. These stores are shooting their own RPG sales in the foot because when someone does wander in randomly looking for a certain book they'll find it curiously absent because someone took down half of the bookshelves in the store in order to make more room for a table for people playing Magic.

The other problem here is that they are in competition with online retailers, both specialised and more general (like Amazon). People will go to stores _because_ they know the store keeps everything they want in stock - it is the same principle as any specialist store. However, when a store fails to keep everything a player wants to see, that player will go elsewhere. Probably online.

It is something of a vicious circle. . .

 

[mthomason]

The other problem here is that they are in competition with online retailers, both specialised and more general (like Amazon). People will go to stores _because_ they know the store keeps everything they want in stock - it is the same principle as any specialist store. However, when a store fails to keep everything a player wants to see, that player will go elsewhere. Probably online.

It is something of a vicious circle. . .

It's even getting to be a problem for online stores as well I know we're concentrating more and more on miniatures now because the stock moves through a lot faster and therefore the shelfspace used is a much better value for money - not a week passes without at least one ACTA product (and usually more) going out of stock only a week after we restocked it. On the other hand, I've still got copies of Vampire: The Requiem sitting around from our launch pack (hey, but we got a neat fold-up stand out of it so it isn't all bad)

When it comes to printed material, pretty much nobody can compete with Amazon (we tried, we managed to pricematch everything at one point leaving a profit margin of about 5%, only for them to introduce free delivery - when Royal Mail offer to take everything for free we'll match that too, shortly after taking a stroll on the ice in Hades). Therefore we just try and beat them on service (just try emailing Amazon and asking them what you need to buy in order to be up to date with ACTA rules), but it's still not helping to shift many rulebooks... As much as I'd love to moan about Amazon, I can't fault them for this - they're supplying to meet a demand, have found a way to make it profitable enough, and gamers are getting things cheaper - not only that, but I was buying books online at one point unaware I was saving money - it was just more convenient to do so when I'm 25 miles from the nearest decent-sized town

That, and the fact that miniatures just sell better and are therefore a much more profitable item of stock to use your valuable space for. I have no doubt that the number of stores dropping RPGs in favour of nasty little card games are doing it for the same reason - there's such a demand out there for the CCGs that they're just more profitable (and if you go bankrupt due to trying to sell only what you want to sell nobody benefits other than the people who clear out your stock at auction). This does leave a rather horrifying prospect, however, to the roleplaying industry - if the products are becoming more scarce in stores, how do new customers find out about them? Once the current generation of RPers have gone, who is going to buy an RPG rulebook off that online bookstore who is now the only place stocking it? It's not exactly something you can find by browsing...

With the relative ratio of RPG to miniature orders we receive in a week now, I'm pretty confident saying that our RPG selection is more there as a service to customers than it is to actually make any money off it (I think last time I looked we only make around £1 on a typical hardback, and theres a certain quantity I will not mention here that actually wipes out all the profit due to the increased weight for postage - and I refuse to start charging customers by weight on heavier packages)

 

[atgxtg]

You Americans really need to buy more - you are letting the side down

I don't know. I mean it sounds to me that if the US were a smaller factor in the overall RPG market, more of the RPZGs that I like would be in print and in play.

I mean, let's say that I love MRQ, but that is doesn't do well in the US. In the old days with the 80% market share, that would probably mean no more MRQ. It might not have been worth continuing with four fiths of the market out of reach.

Now, it seems like the game could still surivive elsewhere. US fans could even still get the game thanks to "amazon.uk".

Hurray for shrinking market share!

 

[MongooseMatt]

I mean, let's say that I love MRQ, but that is doesn't do well in the US. In the old days with the 80% market share, that would probably mean no more MRQ. It might not have been worth continuing with four fiths of the market out of reach.

Maybe. Then again, the UK population alone sustained the Judge Dredd RPG long after we might have otherwise thought about curbing it. . .

 

[mthomason]

Now, it seems like the game could still surivive elsewhere. US fans could even still get the game thanks to "amazon.uk".

Hurray for shrinking market share!

And even if the worst happened, there's bound to be plenty of free stuff in S&P for it

 

[atgxtg]

Are you sure you aren't exaggerating for effect here...at least a bit. Sure, D&D is the biggest single game out there, and all the D20 stuff makes up the largest single portion of games at most stores. However, even Barnes & Noble, and similar book stores that carry only a small selection of games, have more non-D&D (more non-D20 even) items than D&D once you add up all the White Wolf, Shadowrun, GURPS, and some misc. stuff they have.

Also, be careful trying to generalize your local scene to the entire country. The US is pretty big and there are always pretty large fluctuations in the market, for anything, across the country.

Oh, undoubtably I was exaggerating some. Not that much though. I also didn't mention a few things, such as how I've found it easier to teach RQ to a inexperienced newbie than to an experienced "D&D" player. THe D&D player typically has "Learned" things about RPGs that just are not true outside of D&D. It generally makes it very difficult to get D&D players to play other games. When a guy who has gamed for 20 years suddenly can't keep a character alive as long as a newbie, he starts to think that either he is doing things worng, or that there is something wrong with the system. Most veteran players just don't want to accept that they have been doning things wrong for 20 years.

Oh, and before someone gets upset and point out differences in opinion, gamaing style, and game systems, I am referring mostly to tactics and skill use. THere are things that characters can do in D&D that will get you killed in RQ and may other games. The reserve is sometimes true, but less often, as more lethal games tend to develope more cautious gamers.

But, I do suspect that the overall situation in the nation might not be the same as in my local area. However, if you look at the products out in the gaming market you do notice that there are a lot more d20 products out there than anything else.

In fact Mongoose Publishing and MRQ's Game Designer are both noted for producing d20 products. I think MRQ might be the first non-d20 rpg either have produced.

So it does look like a D20 dominated market to me.

As far as the difficlty of finding non d20 gamers: It really is that bad in my area. There are a couple of alterantive rpgers around, but even they seem to try and D&D the other RPGS. For example, there is a group that plays White Wolf's Vampire RPG, and the players in that group have pretty much gone through all the published stuff, sucking the life out of everything in the supplements they way some of the old AD&D books used to get away with "God Hunting" through the Deities & DemiGods book.

 

[atgxtg]

The other problem here is that they are in competition with online retailers, both specialised and more general (like Amazon). People will go to stores _because_ they know the store keeps everything they want in stock - it is the same principle as any specialist store. However, when a store fails to keep everything a player wants to see, that player will go elsewhere. Probably online.

It is something of a vicious circle. . .

Yeah, I see that locally. Currently there are two rpg stores in my area (there used to be more),. Nieither is really a dedicated RPG shop, but sell comics, cards, statues, and other things. THe rpg stuff is really only a small part of either store. Both stores try to carry a decent selection, but due to the vast number of products, as well as D&D's dominance, the majoirty of the rpg stock is D&D. THe whole d20 boom, combined with the CCG crash, means that stores just don't stock everything anymore.

Order MRQ from my local store is actually an inconvience. I had to do all the work tracking don the product in several catalogs, explain what I wanted to the owner, correct him on what comapny was releasing the game, hope he got it right, wait until "order day" meaning that I might not get the product until after everyone else. Part of the difficulty is that since the stores as so focued on D&D, I typically know more about, and care more about other rpgs and their relase dates than the local shop owners do.

I did it in part to support my local store as well as the owner, who is a friend. I'm willing to risk some complications and delays just so my friend can make a few bucks. It might also work out in helping to support MRQ, too, if I decide to run it and my friend likes the game enough to stock it.

Still, it would have been easier and faster for me to buy the PDF, and I suspect I will buy that as well. a PDF has certaina dvantages, plus it's worth it to me to be able to get my hot little hands on the game.

 

[mthomason]

In fact Mongoose Publishing and MRQ's Game Designer are both noted for producing d20 products. I think MRQ might be the first non-d20 rpg either have produced.

The only non-d20 Mongoose RPG that comes to mind is Paranoia.