2nd Age Balazar

[atgxtg]

MRQ can offer a better and more realistic RP experience. Many people will take notice from this advantage, dont you think?

No.

Look, there is nothing new to this approach. RQ has been a better game that D&D since 1978. It had better scenarios, characters and settings. It hasn't made much of a difference. The word 'RuneQuest" only means something to those who are familair with it from the past. TO the typical D&Der it doen't mean a thing and won't draw him away from the "room, monster, treasure" stuff that he loves.

Otherwise, it would have worked by now. THere are several RPG companies that produce games today that let people do what they can do in RQ. SO I don't thingk it will be the D&D market that get's affected.

Decipher tried going after D&D with thier LOTR rpg, and ended up shelving the game not becuase it didn't sell, but becuase it didn't sell like D&D.

THe bulk of the MRQ market is going to be the oldtime RQ players like us, along with the people who play systems beides D&D.

If MOngoose is serious about attacting the D&D players, they are going to need some settings that haven;'t been done before in D&D.


For example, I'm a big King Arthur fan, and ran Pendragon campaigns for several years. Getting D&D players to sit down and play Knights in King Arthur's court, joust, fight in a deadly combat system, and die of old age was like pulling teeth. Getting them to do it without being decked out with an array of magical items was like pulling teeth without anesthesia.

 

[HyrumOWC]

Decipher tried going after D&D with thier LOTR rpg, and ended up shelving the game not becuase it didn't sell, but becuase it didn't sell like D&D.

Um, that's not exactly true. I happen to be friends with, and was gaming with at the time, the entire Decipher RPG staff when they were doing the LotR RPG. The reasons why it failed are almost too numerous to count, but near the top is the downturn in TCG sales for Decipher because of the loss of the Star Wars license to WotC, and financial losses due to a trusted employee stealing millions of dollars out the back door.

Hyrum.

 

[atgxtg]

Wow!

That's news to me. Certainly not the story we've gotten over the years on the TREKRPG site.

Not that I doubt you. All the fans of LUG were stunned when Decipher just drops thier CODA rpg lines into limbo. We knew that something had gone drasticallyt wrong, as all initial repoerts were that the CODA LOTR and TREK stuff sold well.

The word that we got through the ex-LUG, soon to be ex-Decipher staff was that Decipher had placed unresonable expectations upon thier RPG department.

Word of someone running out with large sums of cash is news to me. It certainly explains a lot through. Decipher almost went out like a bulb when someone hits the switch. Yeah, definately explains a lot.

 

[HyrumOWC]

Wow!

That's news to me. Certainly not the story we've gotten over the years on the TREKRPG site.

Not that I doubt you. All the fans of LUG were stunned when Decipher just drops thier CODA rpg lines into limbo. We knew that something had gone drasticallyt wrong, as all initial repoerts were that the CODA LOTR and TREK stuff sold well.

The word that we got through the ex-LUG, soon to be ex-Decipher staff was that Decipher had placed unresonable expectations upon thier RPG department.

Word of someone running out with large sums of cash is news to me. It certainly explains a lot through. Decipher almost went out like a bulb when someone hits the switch. Yeah, definately explains a lot.

What really sucks are all the great books that were at the printer waiting because Decipher couldn't pay their printing bills. Some of them have come out (Paths of the Wise, Mirror Universe) in PDF format, but the Klingon book is KICK ASS, same with the Warrior book who's name escapes me right now.

Jess Heinig and Jeff Tidball were just starting to make their marks on the books as well, and both are solid designer/developers. I really wish they could have continued their work.

Hyrum.

 

[atgxtg]

I know. Believe me, I know. The crew of loyal fans, over at Trek-RPG have been waiting with baited breath while the one or two people who we chat with that are involved with the RPG department do everything short of ritual suicide to get that stuff out. Especially the Klingon Book.

Come to think of it, maybe working to get that stuff out IS a form of ritual suicide! :shock:

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

For example, I'm a big King Arthur fan, and ran Pendragon campaigns for several years. Getting D&D players to sit down and play Knights in King Arthur's court, joust, fight in a deadly combat system, and die of old age was like pulling teeth. Getting them to do it without being decked out with an array of magical items was like pulling teeth without anesthesia.

If we ever meet in real life, let's complain like whiny babies about this fact, because you and I have that paragraph in common.

 

[Enpeze]

No.

Look, there is nothing new to this approach. RQ has been a better game that D&D since 1978. It had better scenarios, characters and settings. It hasn't made much of a difference.

It was not in print the last 20 years so even being the better game, not many young players had the chance to try it. How can they be able to choose RQ instead of lesser excellent systems if they dont know about it?

The word 'RuneQuest" only means something to those who are familair with it from the past. TO the typical D&Der it doen't mean a thing and won't draw him away from the "room, monster, treasure" stuff that he loves.

It seems that you have your fixed opinion about D&D players and the way they roleplay. Even D&D changed over time a llittle bit. Maybe the majority likes traditional dungeon crawling but there are also D&D players who loves the more advanced styles of play, like investigation adventures. Maybe you had some bad personal experience with die-hard D&D fans in the past?

Otherwise, it would have worked by now. THere are several RPG companies that produce games today that let people do what they can do in RQ. SO I don't thingk it will be the D&D market that get's affected.

Can you name some of these systems? For me no system can do what BRP do. Except Gurps maybe, but it has too many rules.

Decipher tried going after D&D with thier LOTR rpg, and ended up shelving the game not becuase it didn't sell, but becuase it didn't sell like D&D.

Maybe its failure was the rules and not the missing similarity to D&D. I read the rules of this game and I didnt like them at all. In fact I like the D&D rules more than the LoTR rules and this means something. For me its no wonder that it didnt sell well. Additonally IMO Middleearth is not well suited for RPs.

THe bulk of the MRQ market is going to be the oldtime RQ players like us, along with the people who play systems beides D&D.

While we are important in the initial phase of the game, we are not that many that I think Mongoose is planning its sale strategy solely on us. OGL is an important step in the right direction.

If MOngoose is serious about attacting the D&D players, they are going to need some settings that haven;'t been done before in D&D.

These settings will come with OGL.

Getting D&D players to sit down and play Knights in King Arthur's court, joust, fight in a deadly combat system, and die of old age was like pulling teeth. Getting them to do it without being decked out with an array of magical items was like pulling teeth without anesthesia.

Again it seems to me that you had bad personal experiences with some D&D freaks. These are numerous today but not every roleplayer plays D&D in this style you described or plays even D&D.

 

[atgxtg]

For example, I'm a big King Arthur fan, and ran Pendragon campaigns for several years. Getting D&D players to sit down and play Knights in King Arthur's court, joust, fight in a deadly combat system, and die of old age was like pulling teeth. Getting them to do it without being decked out with an array of magical items was like pulling teeth without anesthesia.

If we ever meet in real life, let's complain like whiny babies about this fact, because you and I have that paragraph in common.

I'm not quite sure how to take that. Shared experience or sarcasm? Either is cool. Please clue me in on what direction you were going in. :?:

 

[atgxtg]

It was not in print the last 20 years so even being the better game, not many young players had the chance to try it. How can they be able to choose RQ instead of lesser excellent systems if they dont know about it?

Yeas, it has. THe perfect bound edtion from AH was printed in 1994, and Chaosium has been printing limited copies of the monograph for a few years. Addtionally, other companes like Moon Designs have been producting and prerinting RQ stuff.



PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:29 am Post subject:

Enpeze wrote:
No.

Look, there is nothing new to this approach. RQ has been a better game that D&D since 1978. It had better scenarios, characters and settings. It hasn't made much of a difference.


It was not in print the last 20 years so even being the better game, not many young players had the chance to try it. How can they be able to choose RQ instead of lesser excellent systems if they dont know about it?

atgxtg wrote:

The word 'RuneQuest" only means something to those who are familair with it from the past. TO the typical D&Der it doen't mean a thing and won't draw him away from the "room, monster, treasure" stuff that he loves.


[qopte]It seems that you have your fixed opinion about D&D players and the way they roleplay. Even D&D changed over time a llittle bit. Maybe the majority likes traditional dungeon crawling but there are also D&D players who loves the more advanced styles of play, like investigation adventures. Maybe you had some bad personal experience with die-hard D&D fans in the past?

Like I said, I've been playing RQ for decades. I've gone through all this before. A good exapmle is how the D&D crowed were wowed by 3E and thought that concepts such as "skills" and "feats" were not only innovateive, but revolutionary. The sort of stuff that only RPGs had 20 years ago.

Sure, there are some D&D players who have more advanced styles of play. IMO they are the ones who play games other than D&D too. But the vast majoirty of D&Ders are happy playing D&D (that's why they keep playing it), and are not going switch games just because other people think that some other RPG is better. The D&Ders will stick with what they are happy with.

Yeah, I have had some bad experiences with die hard D&D fans. But they are not the ones I am thinking about here. The die hard fans of any rpg are just that-die hards. A lost cause, so to speak.

It's the casual rank & file players that I'm referring to. THey consider D&D to be fine, don't mind the hit point inflation. levels, and abundance of magical items, and just enjoy it.


[qoute]Can you name some of these systems? For me no system can do what BRP do. Except Gurps maybe, but it has too many rules. [/quote]

GURPS, HERO, Harn, Time LOrds, CORPS, d6. There are a lot of good RPG system out there now. Not like in 1978. The concept of a fantasy game without classes and levels, using skills, with activeive parrying, and armor that absorbs damage is all standard stuff now. It's not new and innovative anymore.

Maybe its failure was the rules and not the missing similarity to D&D. I read the rules of this game and I didnt like them at all. In fact I like the D&D rules more than the LoTR rules and this means something. For me its no wonder that it didnt sell well. Additonally IMO Middleearth is not well suited for RPs.

Nope. THe CODA stuff all sold very well. As for the reasons why Decipher shelved it, well I just read a new take on this, so I'll let that point drop. Essentially the problem was with Decipher is some fashion.
I am surprised you liked the D&D rules better than the CODA rules in LOTR though. CODA is a lot more flexible, and isn't class and level driven. But, that's your call. As for MIddle-Earth, well it was certainly well suited for plundering, since practically every fantasy RPG was based on it. It is one thing that used to hurt RQ was that is wasn't based on Middle Earth.

While we are important in the initial phase of the game, we are not that many that I think Mongoose is planning its sale strategy solely on us. OGL is an important step in the right direction.

We are enough that they decided to call the game RuneQuest instead of something else. MOngoose did pay money to be able to use the RQ name. They would not have done it if there were not many RQ players. The intial market for this game is going to be mostly old RQ players, with some HeroQeusters as well (lots of overlap there, through). THe RQ players will be the ones who will make the effort to talk other players into trying the game, and hopefully, supporting it.

Many of us have already pre-ordered the game just becuase it is called RQ. I did. I preordered the Comapinion too. I wouldn't have done that if it were called the "Mongoose Generic Role-Playing System". The RQ name ensures good initial sales thanks to the RQ loyalists. Sucess after the intial phase is going to depend of=n two things: 1) If the RQ players like it and continue to support it, and 2) Drawing in new players from D&D.

Getting the D&D players is going to require a good draw.

These settings will come with OGL.

I hope so. In the long run, I think it will be a setting, rather than the system that will bring success.

Again it seems to me that you had bad personal experiences with some D&D freaks. These are numerous today but not every roleplayer plays D&D in this style you described or plays even D&D.

Maybe, but the ones that don't are hard to come by. At least in my area. The one's I've had experience with are above average D&D players who regularly won awards at conventions.

I'd love to see some other RPGs losen up D&D stranglehold on the gaming majority. I don't expect it, but I'd love to see it. The way the market is now, most of the companies that produce non-D20 product lines also produce D20 products. Companies like Chasoium and AEG have commented that one d20 book plays enough to support thier non-d20 line for a year. With that situation it will be hard to get companies to write OGL RQ Stuff when they could be writing OGL D&D stuff and making more money.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

I'm not quite sure how to take that. Shared experience or sarcasm? Either is cool. Please clue me in on what direction you were going in. :?:

Ha, no, dude - it was meant with an air absolutely sincere sympathy, trust me. I share every inch of your pain.

 

[atgxtg]

I'm not quite sure how to take that. Shared experience or sarcasm? Either is cool. Please clue me in on what direction you were going in. :?:

Ha, no, dude - it was meant with an air absolutely sincere sympathy, trust me. I share every inch of your pain.

Okay. I didn't know what way to take it. Or even where.

I mentioned before that I spent a liong time running Pendragon in aneearlier post. What I did not mention was how I had to twist everyone's arm and essentially "pull rank" (I ran over 99% of the rpg session, so I put my footdown and ran something that I wanted to rather than go with a consensus). to get them to try Pendragon. That was with my RuneQuest group. Yeah, the ended up loving the game, and would show up on my doorstep at times, unannounced, chanting "Pendragon! Pendragon!" to get me to run extra game sessions, but not at first. Pretty much everything I told them about the game when I was tying to get them to play ended up backfiring. The didn't like a single thing they heard. :shock:

One reason why I'mreserving judgement on MRQ until I read it, despire misgivings over what I've seen so far (exception-the Glorantha preview looks fantastic. It's very pretty. I haven't read through all of it yet, but it looks[/s] great!). None of my players liked Pendragon at first, and the they wouldn't let me run much of anything else for 15 years. I got sick of it before they did! Who knows, the same thing could happen to me with MRQ? :idea:

 

[MongooseMatt]

Otherwise, it would have worked by now.

Ah, there you go - we may as well give up now

Seriously guys, we are not aiming to 'beat' D&D. But there is plenty of room for another fantasy RPG of relatively heavy weight.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Something of value that maybe hasn't been mentioned before, is that despite being dead for over 10 years, RQ is still remembered and still legendary. And this is outside of a hard-core fan-base too; there are a lot of folks around reminiscing on it. Now, you don't normally get that outside of major rock bands.

It's easy enough to knock DnD (I've certainly done it), but it was a fun game in it's earlier incarnations, despite the obvious flaws and limitations. It would be far more productive to talk about RQs strengths than another system's weaknesses.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I'd love to see some other RPGs losen up D&D stranglehold on the gaming majority. I don't expect it, but I'd love to see it.

Don't give up hope - D&D is dominant, but it is not almighty. Other RPGs have grabbed market share time and again from the giant. At the end of the day, that is our aim - not to unseat D&D, just grab a little piece of the pie

 

[HyrumOWC]

Companies like Chasoium and AEG have commented that one d20 book plays enough to support thier non-d20 line for a year. With that situation it will be hard to get companies to write OGL RQ Stuff when they could be writing OGL D&D stuff and making more money.

I wish this were still true....

AEG is no longer doing anything d20 related, and neither is Chaosium, and they only did a few things.

The halcyon days of d20 are long gone now and IMNSHO the market is hungry for a non-d20 FRP. (Which is one of the reasons we're doing RQ OGL stuff.)

Hyrum.

 

[Mac V]

Something of value that maybe hasn't been mentioned before, is that despite being dead for over 10 years, RQ is still remembered and still legendary.

I'm living proof. I've been playing RPG's for more years than I like to admit. The whole time, I've heard of RQ, but never checked it out. I've been kind of burnt out on Fantasy games, but when I heard a new edition of RQ was on the way, I figured I check it out. Not knowing anything other than what's in the previews and being a fan of CoC (a BRP) game, I'm really excited. I see a system that looks pretty simple, yet covers many of the cooler aspects of other systems we use. Plus, the style of RQ sounds closer to what I'm looking for than things we've played of late.

 

[Enpeze]

Yeas, it has. THe perfect bound edtion from AH was printed in 1994, and Chaosium has been printing limited copies of the monograph for a few years. Addtionally, other companes like Moon Designs have been producting and prerinting RQ stuff.

AHs edition was dead in the moment it appeared because of the lack of support. It was a failure like everything AH did with RQ and its other roleplaying game P&P. Stafford made a big mistake in giving them the RQ-licence.
And the rest of the "releases" you named has been B/W Monographs of questionable qualtity and limited editions of old material. You cannot compare this to the new release of MRQ with its revised and streamlined game system and much support material. While monographs and reprints from are not very attractive for anyone except the most die-hard fan, a fully supported major release ala MRQ is.

Like I said, I've been playing RQ for decades.

As myself and many of us here on the boards. :wink:

Sure, there are some D&D players who have more advanced styles of play. IMO they are the ones who play games other than D&D too. But the vast majoirty of D&Ders are happy playing D&D (that's why they keep playing it), and are not going switch games just because other people think that some other RPG is better. The D&Ders will stick with what they are happy with.

While I agree that the majority of D&D players (mostly the teenagers) will stick with D&D, I think that the potential market is bigger than you think. For example we seem to speak about the US market. Here in Europe (especially Germany and Austria) the things are a little bit different. D&D is here big but it is not the No1 system I am not even sure if it is the No2.
Tenthousands of gamers here play Das Schwarze Auge, CoC or Midgard and not D&D. So we should decide if our discussion includes only the USA or other countries too.

Yeah, I have had some bad experiences with die hard D&D fans. But they are not the ones I am thinking about here. The die hard fans of any rpg are just that-die hards. A lost cause, so to speak.

Thats correct. I dont think that MRQ will convince die-hard fans of any system to change. But not everyone is die-hard. Many are influenced only by marketing or good support. And I think many people are playing d20 just because their favorite world is written with this system. (due to OGL) So if the publisher of this world decides to change the system they will go with him. Otherworld Creations did this already with Diomin. I dont know about their customer base, but at least they have 8 people in their company.

GURPS, HERO, Harn, Time LOrds, CORPS, d6. There are a lot of good RPG system out there now. Not like in 1978. The concept of a fantasy game without classes and levels, using skills, with activeive parrying, and armor that absorbs damage is all standard stuff now. It's not new and innovative anymore.

Of these games I know Gurps, Harn and d6. Gurps is excellent but very cumbersome to play. too many rules. Definately not BRP. Harn is also excellent but only suited for Fantasy and tailored to Harnworld (which I dont like). d6 is suitable for the flair of Star Wars maybe, but its IMO not as intuitive as BRP and therefore I prefer the latter. So in theory the systems in your list (at least those I know) are good on their own, but they have their limitations. BRP doesnt have such a limitation. Its the perfect rule system. (well 90% perfect ) You can use every thinkable setting with it, with some modifications. Gurps comes close to it, but its full rules are too blown up.

One system I want to throw in is WFRP2. Good game, extremely well supported and you can use d% for combat and skill resolution. But sadly its only available for the Warhammer world.

Nope. THe CODA stuff all sold very well. As for the reasons why Decipher shelved it, well I just read a new take on this, so I'll let that point drop. Essentially the problem was with Decipher is some fashion.
I am surprised you liked the D&D rules better than the CODA rules in LOTR though. CODA is a lot more flexible, and isn't class and level driven. But, that's your call. As for MIddle-Earth, well it was certainly well suited for plundering, since practically every fantasy RPG was based on it.

Really? I dont agree. I am sure that Middleearth is a very bad RP world due to the reasons below. Its good for just one thing. The Lord of the Ring story written by JRT. (and maybe as scenery for the movies too) Its totally artifical without the breath of life. Its like a piece of a very static piece of theater. (Besides that I think JRT is much overestimated as writer but thats rather personal and not valid for my argumentation) On the other hand a good fantasy setting needs one thing: LIFE. It should be full of opportunities. It should have struggling religions, magic for more than just 5 halfgods, a functionally economic system, and some interesting colorful cultures. These factors make good RP stories. Middleearth does not have any of those factors above, so its not good for RP. Literature maybe (if you like Tolkiens dry style), but not RP. Its no wonder that every RP game which tried to play in Tolkiens static world was a failure, while "colored" or complex fantasy worlds like Forgotten Realms and to some extent Glorantha too have been a success.

We are enough that they decided to call the game RuneQuest instead of something else. MOngoose did pay money to be able to use the RQ name. They would not have done it if there were not many RQ players.

I cannot follow this argument. Why should they give RQ another name? It plays like RQ, is licensed from Stafford, its first setting is 2nd age Glorantha. It would be an extremely bad marketing move not to use the name RQ.

The intial market for this game is going to be mostly old RQ players, with some HeroQeusters as well (lots of overlap there, through). THe RQ players will be the ones who will make the effort to talk other players into trying the game, and hopefully, supporting it.

Agreed. In this we have the same opinion.

Sucess after the intial phase is going to depend of=n two things: 1) If the RQ players like it and continue to support it, and 2) Drawing in new players from D&D.

or 3) drawing in players from other systems (CoC for example)
or 4) drawing in normal fantasy fans which like to try out "one of those RPs" in one of the popular fantasy settings (Lankhmar for example, or Hyboria)

Getting the D&D players is going to require a good draw.

Maybe, but not everything is D&D.

Maybe, but the ones that don't are hard to come by. At least in my area. The one's I've had experience with are above average D&D players who regularly won awards at conventions. I'd love to see some other RPGs losen up D&D stranglehold on the gaming majority. I don't expect it, but I'd love to see it. The way the market is now, most of the companies that produce non-D20 product lines also produce D20 products. Companies like Chasoium and AEG have commented that one d20 book plays enough to support thier non-d20 line for a year. With that situation it will be hard to get companies to write OGL RQ Stuff when they could be writing OGL D&D stuff and making more money.

An "award" at a D&D convention? (shrug) Sounds great. No seriously, one of the ways to success is the OGL. Its was important for the market penetration of d20 the last years and it will be important for MRQ. If not you can shoot a hole in my knee and pour milk in.

 

[atgxtg]

Companies like Chasoium and AEG have commented that one d20 book plays enough to support thier non-d20 line for a year. With that situation it will be hard to get companies to write OGL RQ Stuff when they could be writing OGL D&D stuff and making more money.

I wish this were still true....

AEG is no longer doing anything d20 related, and neither is Chaosium, and they only did a few things.

The halcyon days of d20 are long gone now and IMNSHO the market is hungry for a non-d20 FRP. (Which is one of the reasons we're doing RQ OGL stuff.)

Hyrum.

Well the d20 bubble has burst. When OGL D&D first came out, everyone thought that it was a good idea to get in on-and it was. Now, the problem is that too many people are producing d20 products. What happens is that instead of competing with different RPGs, d20 products are competing with each other. THis has gotten to the point where you now have multiple d20 books covering the same setting competing with each other for market share.

Ken Hite wrote an interesting "Out of the Box" column on this not to long ago. He intervied several RPG companies, including MOngoose to get thier take on the status of the RPG industry.


Where I think the real market for RQ is, is those gamers who don't care for d20 and want to buy something else. I know I look at most of the non-D20 stuff, before I look at the D20 products. I think the only D20 product that I've bought in the last 3 years was OGL Ancients, and that becuase it not only covered a setting that I am interested in, but that is also replaced the standard D&D combat rules with something more like RQ and Pendragon.

Hmm. RuneQuest Ancients?

 

[atgxtg]

I'd love to see some other RPGs losen up D&D stranglehold on the gaming majority. I don't expect it, but I'd love to see it.

Don't give up hope - D&D is dominant, but it is not almighty. Other RPGs have grabbed market share time and again from the giant. At the end of the day, that is our aim - not to unseat D&D, just grab a little piece of the pie

Hurray! While I'd love to see D&D get unseated (pun unintended, I wish it wasn't), I think grabbing some market share is the right way to go. Better a larger piece of a smaller pie than a miniscule piece of a bigger pie.


I'm thinking d20 and WotC are only a couple years away from another crash and D&D 4th edition. THat way they can reprint the core books again, and throw out all the eariler supplements. It will probably be the only way the can sustain RPG sales.

 

[RMS]

While I agree that the majority of D&D players (mostly the teenagers) will stick with D&D, I think that the potential market is bigger than you think. For example we seem to speak about the US market. Here in Europe (especially Germany and Austria) the things are a little bit different. D&D is here big but it is not the No1 system I am not even sure if it is the No2. Tenthousands of gamers here play Das Schwarze Auge, CoC or Midgard and not D&D. So we should decide if our discussion includes only the USA or other countries too.

This is a very good point. My understanding is that BRP (and RQ specifically) have much bigger market shares in Europe than they do in the US. I know that when we were getting the horrible art in English RQ releases, the French books looked absolutely amazing. I wish I could read French. If so, I'd have imported those.