2e request - stacking

Just an opinion

Game is 2D not 3D, there's nothing to cover top and bottom arcs, height movement or anything else. Suggests to me that ships cannot be above or below each other under these rules.

As for bases overlapping, when using figures you can't do it safely, so we don't do it here. difficult situations such as above examples, we do it that if you can avoid stacking by any combination of movement and special orders, then you have to, even if it means 'max chat' past the enemy and loosing them from your forward arc. If you can't avoid stacking even with an all stop (dam those pesky reactor critical hits) then either stop short or over extend, whichever puts you closer to your legal move.

As for cheese hounds trying to take advantage of this, I have a simple solution. 14lbs sledge hammer head, dropped from about 3' altitude, onto their figures. Normally does the trick.

PS, bad day at the office + evenings session of ACTA cancelled.
 
whoops, forgot to say about people using fleet action fleets against full size fleets. Have simple solution. give them the advanced manoeuvrability advantage, just scale down the size of their ships. About 50% damage and crew from the full size versions should do the trick.

Seams fair to me!
 
Obviously I'm just taking the preverbial, guys.

More serious suggestion would be that full size figures should be used whenever available, and diddy-figs and card should be replaced with full size when things get tight, just to keep the playing field level.
 
Fair enough, Nightmares, but I ask this:

What about Dilgar setting up a ship with no legal place to drop a full-sized base? For the slow Bin'Tak, this might not be hard.

Why would they do this? To force you to All Stop.
And not move at all.
And eat all those otherwise useless Mass Drivers.

Bin'Tak go boom.

Maybe this is a tactic that shouldn't be feasible. I'm a Dilgar player, and I don't think, under any circumstance, that such a tactic should even be marginally legal, but with your proposal, it would.

Do you have a suggestion to stop said tactic? It's valid, and, if you can set it up in the Furball, devastating.
 
i'd say the best solution would be for mongoose to make a series of tokens and bases that had the same footprint. and then call anything that doesn't conform to it's apropriate footprint not tornament legal.

Thus if you only have FA scale minis, you simply place your mini on top of a counter and bam, legal footprint.

of coarse this would mean that everyone would need those tokens and most people would want to retrofit their minis with the new bases (not that difficult if you use any of the many removable basing methods, but anoying otherwize). but in the end it's the only way to get around the fact that mongoose (i think wisely) chooses to allow tokens and minis to both be official for tournament use.
 
Maybe if you can't move because of a base, just move in front of it if it's a enemy not your own has you use it to give your the extra speed to get into range. That way if your opponent does it it's his mistake. If it's your ship move it behind but this is also could be abused to keep your ships out of range if the situation came about. It's quite a hard thing to work out.
 
At the Dilgar player:

Obviously firstly this is the sort of cheesy/beardy/gamesmanship sort of misuse that just shouldn't happen in a gentleman's game.

In a tounament, a ship that was forced to all stop is still capable of movement, up to half it's speed, and even if it only moves 1mm, it's still moved, and therefore cannot be targeted by mass drivers.

As an aside, if your talking about the full size Bin'Tak, there's no way you can get another ship right up to it's base, the nose on that thing is huge! So you'd always be able to move it a little

Just thoughts though
 
I don't want to be penalized for my big beautiful bases. Hell, they're painted better than the ships!

What I propose is use any size base you want to, but when quarters get tight, move to a chit that can be place over another one, remembering that it's the center dot that counts. Once you move out into the clear, go back to the model. It's an aesthetic thing.

I can see a rule not allowing stacking, per se, but sometimes it happens. If it's not abused - like your entire fleet stacked an inch high, I see no reason not to allow the chit idea.

Also, 3 fighters at <=2" to an arc is a great idea. What about <=4"?
 
How about temporary bases printed on clear sheets of acetate? All four firing arcs would be marked as well as center point and heading. Perhaps different colored markings so in the event of major stacking, one can easily decipher which marks belong to which ship. Then when things clear up go back to minis.
 
animus said:
Also, 3 fighters at <=2" to an arc is a great idea. What about <=4"?
What about when some fighters have a range of 2", some a range of 3" and some a range of 4" - this is exactly where this sort of rule has its difficulties. Don't get me wrong, it's still often simpler than physically placing fighters there, but no solution is perfect...
 
prelude_to_war said:
How about temporary bases printed on clear sheets of acetate? All four firing arcs would be marked as well as center point and heading. Perhaps different colored markings so in the event of major stacking, one can easily decipher which marks belong to which ship. Then when things clear up go back to minis.

Clear acetate? Brilliant.
 
Triggy said:
animus said:
Also, 3 fighters at <=2" to an arc is a great idea. What about <=4"?
What about when some fighters have a range of 2", some a range of 3" and some a range of 4" - this is exactly where this sort of rule has its difficulties. Don't get me wrong, it's still often simpler than physically placing fighters there, but no solution is perfect...

The answer should be an easy geometry experiment. The 3 fighters per arc was based on the chits. We just need to move the ring out and use the fighter chit size to find the solution.
 
If you want the stacking to still mean something, I can propose this:

1). All bases must either converted or proxied to a common base. we suggest the miniature base. (Requires mongoose to make cheap conversion bases for fleet action style figurines and establish fixed base sizes.)

2). When a player decides to move, he or she moves all the ships of the activation. In the case of a squadron, each ship is moved once at a time.
a). If the prospective final location of the moving object is in the same base area as one or more auxiliary craft, not in the same base area as another ship, and the unit moving is not an auxiliary craft, all auxiliary craft are placed on top of the base and of the newly-moved ship.

[Fighters and ships stack ... no anti-fighter bases for you! This reflects a slight upgrade for fighters.]

b). If the prospective final location of the moving object is occupied by an auxiliary craft and the moving unit is an auxiliary craft, the move is illegal and a new move must be found, including, if necessary selecting no movement at all.

[Fighters can only stack when escorting other fighters]

c). If neither of the above is true, and there is a final legal base location available within a small (here, fit your own house value, I'll say 1/8") distance from the final location that is on the current heading forwards or backwards, simply use that. If that is occurpied, itself, however, by another ship, use the procedure below.

[This is the fudge rule -- I'm only off by just a tiny bit, is that a problem? Nah, just place it there ... probably enough to resolve most situations right there.]

d). If the prospective final location base area is occupied by opponent ships only, the owner of the moving ship may select from the following two options:
1). The owner is allowed to continue, indefinitely, to the next point of relief past the ship blocking at the moving ship's heading until a suitable base space is found or another ship or ships is responsible for blocking the base, at which time this procedure is re-executed for the new situation. Movement in excess of that permitted is specifically allowed in this instance
2). The owner is allowed to cut short his move, at any time, to the next point of relief short of the ship blocking until a suitable base space is found or another ship or ships is responseible for blocking the base, at which time this procedure is re-executed for the new propsective move. This path must include any and all turns executed by the move in question. This is allowed even if the ship no longer has access to the All Stop special action, and may be in njunction with other actions, such as All Hands on Deck. It is not a special action.

e). If the prospective final location base area is occupied by friendly ships only, the opponent of the moving ship may select from the following two options in part d.

f). If the prospective final location base area is occupied by a mix of ships only, the party chosing the procedure in 2d is determined by who has more ships under the base. In the event of a tie, the opponent makes the selection (section d, above).

f). It is very possible, in congested situations, that this procedure may need to be executed multiple times -- one ship blocks a location that another ship needs, and so forth and so on. In this event, it is recommended that players not permit infinite decision loops of iterations of the process of 2d.

[Spirit of the rule: it's the blocker's fault. If you can only land on your own ships ang go where you want to go, tough, your opponent will choose where you end up ... enjoy. If you get blocked by an enemy's ship, you'll get the choice. Given that the moving ship gets to choose what the final unit that's blocking its path is, the latter is more likely. I give up that you can get something for nothing here --- All Stop plus another special action if you can arrange it, but it's a bit contrived, and you can't always select how much all stop you get. On the other hand, if you manage to create a situation where you're tripping over your own feet -- speed crits can certainly do this -- expect to get hosed. The Drakh swarms of raiders and boresight fleets can be particularly bad, here.]

3). If a ship is capable of movement, but for any reason is not purely able to a lack of base space available, this ship is considered to have moved an infinitesimal amount and is not a valid target for weapons with the Mass Driver property.

[No Dilgar cheese.]

4). As the situation becomes crowded, we recommend the temporary use of proxies or counters (which would have to be cut to circular base sizes now[!!!]) as temporary placeholders to protect the miniatures involved in the scrum.

[Common sense.]

Sorry for all the legalese, but this is my first attempt at cheeseproofing a rule that still keeps the base exclusion zones intact. Otherwise, the proposal is Animus' free infinite stacking idea.
 
it strikes me that all this comes down to common sense.

Logicaly in space you could have a stack of ships 100 ships high, however this is a figure based wargame, which is where the no stacking comes from.

At our tables we've never had a problem with this for whatever reason.

Guess different groups need different levels of legalese cheeseproofing in their rules. Those of you that need plenty of anti-cheese protection, you have my sympathies for what it's worth.
 
I've been using the standard "stop when the bases touch" ruling for ships which would stop on another's base. Trouble I have is that some of the longer models (particularly EA Omegas, Novas and Warlocks) extend a good inch or two past the base. In those cases I've been placing a 2" high "lift" under them.
 
It won't always help, but I regularly vary the height that I base ships at, by cutting off part of the stem of the flying base. This isn't actually any more work than normal as I drill and pin all my ships to the stems now anyway, finding that the plastic lugs on the stems just too fragile.

Upshot of this is that you can get ships in closer together some of the time due to the different heights.

Side benefit, it looks cool. Especially when the ships also angled, got an Artemis that is climbing and banking that looks particularly good.
 
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