A few points regarding 2e so far.

[Fenrirr]

I should preface this post mostly relates with the choices made by Mongoose rather than the actual rules changes or what have you. Currently I am very much so enjoying 2e and it is a very polished product so far. However, I have a few gripes with Mongoose's model here.

1) Watermarked PDFS. I understand the need for them on a company basis. They protect your IP and are a first-line of defence against piracy. But in the end, much like most forms of digital protection - it will end up bugging the owner and not the pirate. The name-and-order watermark is easy enough to remove, but I am sure Mongoose is crafty enough to insert hidden instances of a 'cartographers signature' as a back up. Eventually even that will be circumvented. I say this 'bugs the owner' as I have to share my rulebook with my players. I run international games with players over Roll20 or occasionally Maptools. Most of which do not have the disposable income to afford 2e (I will get to this point soon). I prefer some sense of anonymity and I would prefer if my name were not tied to my book on every page. Additionally, I am afraid that I might get a bad egg for a player who decides to start sharing around the PDF without my permission. tl;dr watermarking is a hassle for buyers, and a temporary guard against pirates

2) The Cost. The 2e books are very well-made from a graphical standpoint, the art is leaps and bounds better than 1e and fits a very unique art style I feel is very underused (Mass Effect has a similar visual style). However, despite the great production value, the cost is too great. The PDF's are incredibly expensive. The CSC is 45£ (85.72$ CAD!!) or 30£ (57.15$CAD) in the current sale. That is just for a single expansion! The prices are truly brobdingnagian and are a huge hurdle for trying to get new players to try Traveller. It is nearly impossible to find players with any experience in Traveller outside of fans that have played since Classic days, or GURPS Traveller. Whatever happened to SRD's? Simple, fluff-less free bases of content that allow GM's and players (as well as content creators) to actually play and use Traveller. It is not as if the rules took a huge paradigm shift from 1e, so I do not see the issue in creating a 2e SRD. It would also not hurt your business if you reduced the prices to your books so that it can be more accessible to newer players, instead of scaring them off with huge investments that might cause buyer's remorse later on. tl;dr price of entry is too high, scares off players

EDIT1: One thing I felt however was an improvement in this regard was the release of free visual content. I am referring to the tilesets for isometric and 2-D plane ships, as well as a variety of clip art and all of that. Super cool thing for you guys to do.

3) The Rules. Yes, yes. This has been stated before. But the removal of even a simple starship creation tool in the rulebook is a disappointing thing to see. As it now means I must add another expansion onto the list if I want to make ships that fit properly within the rules without just fiating numbers and unbalanced systems. At the end of the day, I will have to pay 200$ CAD just to own the core book and two expansions. tl;dr Moving rules into separate books is a sly move on your part, Mongoose

4) Nitpick Alert, the QR Code AD in CSC. I understand the need to advertise your product or make it easily accessible to new players, but adding QR codes in your book that are just straight up AD's is a bit disappointing. When I first saw it, I had assume it was some sort of easter egg or bonus image or something (even downloaded a QR reader on my computer to check what it was). All I got was a link to the Mongoose Store. This, combined with the issue of price might give potential players the wrong message when it comes to Mongoose's priorities and desires. I know you need to advertise your book, but putting it 10 pages into your RPG rather than the 1st page or a blank filler page would've been somewhat more easier to swallow. At least you could have made the ad creative, like a link to a hidden page on the Mongoose site that had a 15-30 second video mock ad of weapons with a link to the store below it. tl;dr Tasteful advertising is always appreciated.

To finish. I really, really, REALLY want Traveller 2e to succeed. I want Traveller to be played by everyone. I am fanatical in this belief and I try to actively recommend it at any possible moment. I try to create free content for it when I have the spare time. But there are a lot of things you are doing Mongoose that I feel could be done better to properly spread your brand around. Because with the costs required for entry, it feels more like a country club than a friendly local game store. I feel as if you have no aspirations for Traveller outside of the niche it has filled for 40+ years and are just trying to capitalize on the grognards and devoted fans. Any change at all in this policy is sure to bring customer good will and more fans to your excellent RPG. I don't want to have to struggle to find players or even other GM's who run the game. Word of Mouth is a powerful effect, but it acutally requires a mouth to spread.

I want Traveller to retake up its mantle as the 'D&D' of sci-fi RPG's.

Any response at all would be greatly appreciated.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

You share your PDFs with players? Doesn't sound legal.

 

[Fenrirr]

You share your PDFs with players? Doesn't sound legal.

I share it in the same way a GM will show their players pages or something. Otherwise it's impossible to play the game without a 250$ investment split 4 additional ways.

EDIT: It is either that, or I have to use puush on every page I need to show a player. But that is incredibly tedious.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

You share your PDFs with players? Doesn't sound legal.

I share it in the same way a GM will show their players pages or something. Otherwise it's impossible to play the game without a 250$ investment split 4 additional ways.

You show your pad to a player so they can see a page? That's how it would be done with a book.

 

[Fenrirr]

You share your PDFs with players? Doesn't sound legal.

I share it in the same way a GM will show their players pages or something. Otherwise it's impossible to play the game without a 250$ investment split 4 additional ways.

You show your pad to a player so they can see a page? That's how it would be done with a book.

EDIT: It is either that, or I have to use puush on every page I need to show a player. But that is incredibly tedious.

I share the book on a trust basis and hope they respect my wishes when I request they delete any files that they were given after usage so that it is not distributed out of our gaming circle.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I share the book on a trust basis and hope they respect my wishes when I request they delete any files that they were given after usage so that it is not distributed out of our gaming circle.

That's a problem. Because then you're producing illegal copies of books and giving them to people, so that they have rules they didn't pay Mongoose for.

 

[Fenrirr]

I share the book on a trust basis and hope they respect my wishes when I request they delete any files that they were given after usage so that it is not distributed out of our gaming circle.

That's a problem. Because then you're producing illegal copies of books and giving them to people, so that they have rules they didn't pay Mongoose for.

I do not see the difference between that and sharing a book in real life besides the vast distances between the players and GM. There needs to be some way I can share the book with players and there is no alternative that is not just a tedious formality thus far. An interesting addition on Mongoose's part would be some sort of 'Family Share'-esque system or something so I can share the book without having to deal with this postmodern legal bullcrap.

 

[legozhodani]

Postmodern legal bullcrap. Mmm a product is still a product. I agree the price for electronic is too high to casual players however the feeling of entitlement of electronic media is a pain in the arse. YOMV.

 

[Fenrirr]

Postmodern legal bullcrap. Mmm a product is still a product. I agree the price for electronic is too high to casual players however the feeling of entitlement of electronic media is a pain in the arse. YOMV.

I don't particularly see it as entitlement, but convenience. I understand it is a product, but this is an age where the digital medium is being defined by new laws and rules. At what point does sharing a physical book equate to being illegal? What about a digital pdf? If the two have different thresholds, why is it different? These are all complex aspects I feel need to be solved one way or another. IRL Tabletop games aren't the only medium anymore, digital tabletops are growing incredibly fast due to the ease of access and convenience of the programs.

The primary difference I see between PDF's and physical books is that PDF's do not have a physical representation and are more or less infinite in value while also containing no actual mass. This creates the awkward, complex scenario where it is okay to share a rulebook amongst friends without it being illegal, but when the medium is suddenly shifted onto a computer - it is suddenly illegal to share pages or books because they can be redistributed further. On the GM's part this is a huge headache and needs to be resolved in a manner that makes sense and is not stuck in the ways of the physical copy.

 

[legozhodani]

Photocopies are the closest that a book share gets to the situation. This is usualy allowed to a limited degree by most publishers, can't remember what % is seen as reasonable. I see the problem with electronic share is that it can snowball out of control very quickly for the publisher. Before you know it the whole product is out there free for all. I agree we as a society we are still fumbling our way forward with this problem.

 

[Fenrirr]

Photocopies are the closest that a book share gets to the situation. This is usualy allowed to a limited degree by most publishers, can't remember what % is seen as reasonable. I see the problem with electronic share is that it can snowball out of control very quickly for the publisher. Before you know it the whole product is out there free for all. I agree we as a society we are still fumbling our way forward with this problem.

Photocopies are a good example. The thing is though, with printed books its nearly impossible to watermark it due to the costs needed to print each book custom. So it goes from a comparable analogy, to suddenly something that is more complex than it appears.

I see the problem with electronic share is that it can snowball out of control very quickly for the publisher. Before you know it the whole product is out there free for all.

This I feel is a bit of an extreme statement. Most people desire to buy the product whenever it is possible, even if it is online. But prohibitive costs will promote piracy more than reducing costs. I feel that reducing costs reduces the amount of piracy and that the goal of most publishers is to find a sweet spot where everyone is happy and the market can propagate. As it stands now, I would not be surprised if illegal, de-marked copies of Traveller 2e start to circulate in the next two or three months. Piracy is inevitable and a fact of life sadly, so I feel things like watermarks are wasted effort. It's like the Coastal Wall in Pacific Rim, a good idea on paper, not very good in practice. It only takes one little breach and suddenly the whole system comes crumbling down - with all of its positives removed, only the annoying negatives remain.

That being said, I stand by my statement that people will buy Traveller, but the lower the price of something - the more it is bought. 30pounds is quite above average in terms of RPG price, triply so for a PDF with very few substantial new features and even some removed features.

 

[legozhodani]

I think £30 for the hardback copy is an okay price. With the improved version some of my players have said it looks good and might be worth a punt. They never thought this of the older version in hardback. As for the cost of the PDF, no argument on the price being too steep, but I'm not a fan of PDFs anyway.

 

[Fenrirr]

I think £30 for the hardback copy is an okay price. With the improved version some of my players have said it looks good and might be worth a punt. They never thought this of the older version in hardback. As for the cost of the PDF, no argument on the price being too steep, but I'm not a fan of PDFs anyway.

When I was referring to the price, I was referring to the PDF price. Hard-copy wise £30 is fair. But for a PDF it's a bit much. The physical costs of printing the book are removed from the equation, yet the prices are the same? There should at least be a PDF-only version for cheaper (printing, shipping and distributing a book is between £5-8 I'd reckon) so perhaps £22-25 would be a reasonable rate. A flat £20 would be a much easier pill to swallow.


On a side note, I really cannot state how awesome it was for Mongoose to publish those tilesets. http://puu.sh/p90vH/3eda0b9a60.jpg

 

[wbnc]

Postmodern legal bullcrap. Mmm a product is still a product. I agree the price for electronic is too high to casual players however the feeling of entitlement of electronic media is a pain in the arse. YOMV.

I don't particularly see it as entitlement, but convenience. I understand it is a product, but this is an age where the digital medium is being defined by new laws and rules. At what point does sharing a physical book equate to being illegal? What about a digital pdf? If the two have different thresholds, why is it different? These are all complex aspects I feel need to be solved one way or another. IRL Tabletop games aren't the only medium anymore, digital tabletops are growing incredibly fast due to the ease of access and convenience of the programs.

The primary difference I see between PDF's and physical books is that PDF's do not have a physical representation and are more or less infinite in value while also containing no actual mass. This creates the awkward, complex scenario where it is okay to share a rulebook amongst friends without it being illegal, but when the medium is suddenly shifted onto a computer - it is suddenly illegal to share pages or books because they can be redistributed further. On the GM's part this is a huge headache and needs to be resolved in a manner that makes sense and is not stuck in the ways of the physical copy.

I'm going to be a bit blunt. If it offends you I am not going to pretend to be sorry for that.... I and many other people on this board write gaming materials. I think I can say without any fear of contradiction, it is irksome to hear someone so casually excuse taking money away from the people who work hard to provide the material.

You are biting the hand that feeds you. By handing around those illegal copies, and they are Illegal, You ARE taking money out of the pocket of the people who spend months developing the material When I submitted a book to mongoose I was offered a per copy commission for my work. Every illegal copy robs a commission based writer or artist. pass the book around to four people that robs the person who spent a lot of time and effort on that material of his commission.

You can't expect people to do quality work just for the enjoyment out of it. A 135 page source book I wrote took me three months to write, work out the statistics for 20 ships then edit, and rewrite. and then since I also supplied concept art I am also putting in months of time on that...lets not even talk about how long it took for me to acquire the skills needed to produce a product Mongoose decided was worth their time....that was YEARS of my life invested.

There are only so many people with the skill, talent, and desire to produce material of even a barely acceptable level for publication.If people casually take money out of their pocket and then excuse it with equally casual disregard for their theft people might loose the motivation to put in the work. My project was shelved due to scheduling ad work load issues. Basically not enough people, or time, either there aren't enough people wth the skill set and motivation to handle the extra work, or the company can't afford a larger staff and still make a profit...either way I have to go and self publish my work now...which is requiring even more work on my part. So add learning to do layout, page setting and learn to use a new set of software to the list of my investments in my material.

Currently, I have at least four projects I have to get ready to release, and so far I have made exactly 75 dollars off the skills I have spent years developing... So If you like the material and people want to play it maybe putting a few coins in the pocket of the guy who hs ben wracking his brain, and staying up nights to put it together would be a fair trade.

You can't expect to enjoy the fruits of someone else's hard work for free. if you can't afford a book that's a problem. But, handing a tablet or laptop around the table instead of stealing from the author would be the least you could do. Or at the very least have the common decency not to be so casual about it....and most certainly don't publicize the fact you're taking money out of peoples pockets.

sincerely
William Byrd, owner, president and sole employee of "Out Of My mind Games."

If this response is over the line by forum rules I apologize. however if it's offensive to those stealing from people who put in a lot of work.....I will not apologize. Have a nice day.

 

[legozhodani]

Pretty much agree with last post. Never a good idea to advertise your breaking the law! Hard work was put into these products.

 

[Fenrirr]

~snip~

You are utterly glazing over my points. It is not as simple as 'it is stealing'. I have no other way to acutally show my players how to play without asking 4 people who are completely new to the system to pay £30 on a whim of a game. That is not a neglible sum. Additionally, as I have pointed out several times, if I were to have a single rulebook in real life. I would be able to easily show it to my players freely. I do not see this as illegal. If I finish a book and give it to a friend after I am finished, then it is merely lending.

However.

I play solely on a digital medium where lending is not traditionally possible. This is why I lend my copies to my players and then request they delete them when the campaign as a whole is closed. Puush provides a way of 'showing pages' to players, but it is a tedious formality to constantly have to Puush-> Capture Area -> Wait for load -> Paste into Skype or whatever. There is this glaring, unapproached schism between digital and physical that is the issue here. This is why I feel calling it illegal is not exactly accurate and why I wish something such as an SRD or some sort of players version of the book would be released. This is a frustrating thing to deal with.

As for 'costs'. Effort is proportional to cost, but the extension of that value has diminishing returns. I know how much effort goes into developing content for RPGs (I personally go for the freeware route), but at a point price needs to be moderated to acutally be feasible for what content it provides. This includes counting physical properties such as printing and distribution. This is an archaic, grandfathered tradition that needs to end, it is simply nonsensical.

 

[IanBruntlett]

You are utterly glazing over my points. It is not as simple as 'it is stealing'. I have no other way to acutally show my players how to play without asking 4 people who are completely new to the system to pay £30 on a whim of a game. That is not a neglible sum. Additionally, as I have pointed out several times, if I were to have a single rulebook in real life. I would be able to easily show it to my players freely. I do not see this as illegal. If I finish a book and give it to a friend after I am finished, then it is merely lending.

I am sorry but my experience of running RPGs (AD&D2e, MgT1e) completely contradicts your statements. None of my players have read the Mg Traveller rules or bought them. However, I tend to have two copies of the rule books - one for me, one for the players to share.

I ran my first Mg Traveller game with the Core Rulebook and some character sheets for a social worker who had little-to-none RPG experience. Went fine. Ad libbed lots of things. Even the GM's screen hadn't been published so I photocopied key tables and glued them to the inside front cover and inside back cover. If you are going to be GMing Mg Traveller, you can make do with one copy of the Core Rulebook (for the GM to use and the players to share during character creation). If the players like it and you intend to run more gaming sessions, then you have to decide if you want to buy more copies of the CRB. Maybe have the players chip in a few pounds / dollars at the beginning of a gaming session with a view to saving enough money to buy books?

Mongoose have a "bits and mortar" scheme where when you buy a physical book (from a participating shop), you get the PDF free.

 

[nats]

I must agree with the posters that say this is not a good thing giving away pdfs to people. If you had a book you could photocopy relevant bits and hand them out and its the same for pdfs. If Mongoose are charging for the pdfs they should not be distributed freely. Very interested players should be encourage to buy their own copies but there is no reason a player should need a copy of the rule book. There should be a free handout provided by Mongoose that covers the basic rules that could be handed out if need be.

 

[wbnc]

~snip~

You are utterly glazing over my points. It is not as simple as 'it is stealing'. I have no other way to acutally show my players how to play without asking 4 people who are completely new to the system to pay £30 on a whim of a game. That is not a neglible sum. Additionally, as I have pointed out several times, if I were to have a single rulebook in real life. I would be able to easily show it to my players freely. I do not see this as illegal. If I finish a book and give it to a friend after I am finished, then it is merely lending.

I play solely on a digital medium where lending is not traditionally possible. This is why I lend my copies to my players and then request they delete them when the campaign as a whole is closed. Puush provides a way of 'showing pages' to players, but it is a tedious formality to constantly have to Puush-> Capture Area -> Wait for load -> Paste into Skype or whatever. There is this glaring, unapproached schism between digital and physical that is the issue here. This is why I feel calling it illegal is not exactly accurate and why I wish something such as an SRD or some sort of players version of the book would be released. This is a frustrating thing to deal with.

Blind investment issue...Traditionally a risk with any purchase. I've seen people drop more money on pizza and beer or a single trip to the theatre. If you buy coffe, sodas, cigarettes on a regular basis you might actually spend more a month on those. a group could easily buy more books as a group purchase. a few dollar/pounds each is not that big of aninvestment...alf the libray of books I have aquired were from going in halves or thrids with freinds who later quit gaming...

Lending : lending a book is fine even an E-book, but if both people still have a copy then it's not lending..it's illegal copying...if you give someone a permenant copy it has the ame effect as walkig into a bookstore and walking out with a copy without paying...the means and methods are different but the effcet is the same. Someon has a copy of a book they did not pay for. the fact it does not have tangible form is irrelevant/exostential.

Sharing: a few button pushes and a short delay is hardly a major issue. yes it can be frustrating but hardly a reason to take money out of someones pocket. I use digital media virtual tabletops and skype a lot. and cutting and pasting to a virtual tabletop. Bt I alos spent years playing with one set of books for five or six people. in those cases I copy materials I know people will need and print them off...which is fine, and an accepted practice..giving over entire copies is not.

If the material you shar is deleted then it is a gray area on the ethics and morality scale but if someone uses a book for months or years then deletes it it's roughly equivelant to saying "Well I threw the book away when I didnt need it anymore" after stealing a dead tree version.

However.



As for 'costs'. Effort is proportional to cost, but the extension of that value has diminishing returns. I know how much effort goes into developing content for RPGs (I personally go for the freeware route), but at a point price needs to be moderated to actually be feasible for what content it provides. This includes counting physical properties such as printing and distribution. This is an archaic, grandfathered tradition that needs to end, it is simply nonsensical.

Once again an argument of convenience."I'd like to have it free, or pay what I THINK it's worth...the answer is very easy. If you don't think it's worth the effort or money don't buy it..

As for value: I'll misquote one of my favorite authors...." I could make a better living writing romance novels.Those are easy I can write one in a couple of days..."I can go to work at McDonalds and make better money for the return on effort involved.....I am doing it because I want to put out material I want to see in games. but some people have made a career out of it...for them the price on the cover has to be enough to pay the bills, and make enough profit to convince someone to pony up the cash to produce the material to begin with. that not always in line with perceived value in some cases. But in that case I refer to my earlier comment...if you don't think it's worth the value don't buy it...dont steal it either.

A game book is a piece of someone's life. hours spent on a project are no different than hours spent building a car or time spent cooking a meal for someone. It's their property. It's time out of their life nights spent staring at a blank screen, and headaches as they try to figure out a way around a particularly tricky bit...Yes, prices and delivery methods, and features could be improved but, that's not an excuse to give away their work to your friends and pretend it's cool. It's not, legally, ethically and morally it's theft.Just because you can justify your actions with clever uses of logic , and you don't approve of the practices and methods of a business does not entitle you, or you're friends to another persons work.

Barring extreme circumstances...when it all boils down, the fact is that no amount of justification can excuse theft. When you pass around illegal copies of someone work you are in fact stealing from someone...whether or not you personally consider it stealing.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

You can't convince someone that steals, that they are a thief. They've already logistisized it in their brain that what they are doing isn't hurting anyone. It all comes down to... they don't want to pay for stuff. Be it games, movies, music, etc.

Anyway,
I've been able to referee Mongoose Traveller games on G+ Hangout just fine without the players having the rules. Players end up buying their own set of rules because they want to become referees themselves.