Zistorwal: the Clanking City

[Rurik]

Agreed. I've decided my next RuneQuest product will be 96-pages (PDF and hardcover, detailing a town and 30 nights of adventures in the town) because it seems to be the perfect size for the current market.

That Rocks. Sounds like just the type of supplement RQ needs. Any ETA?

RQ supplements are selling enough to keep 'em coming then?

 

[philreed]

That Rocks. Sounds like just the type of supplement RQ needs. Any ETA?

Late December would be my guess. It all depends on how well work continues and how many other projects need my attention. (Instant Superheroes, a new Mutants & Masterminds book, is taking most of my time right now.)

RQ supplements are selling enough to keep 'em coming then?

Not really. I want to give it a few months before making a decision, though. I'm really enjoying working with the system so I'm hopeful sales will reach a point I can afford to continue investing time in the system.

 

[Trifletraxor]

The page limits are set by High Command. Thin hardbacks are pretty much a staple of the evolving RPG industry, since they work out better financially. Hence Mongoose, Wizards of the Coast, White Wolf, etc. all going that route. Maybe a lot of people here aren't big D&D or WoD players and don't see it happening that much, but it's the way it is.[/size]

Chaosium just released a 439 page scenario.

Rurik wrote:
RQ supplements are selling enough to keep 'em coming then?

Not really. I want to give it a few months before making a decision, though. I'm really enjoying working with the system so I'm hopeful sales will reach a point I can afford to continue investing time in the system.

Make the scenario book compatible with Glorantha, and you're likely to sell a lot more books.

SGL.

 

[philreed]

Make the scenario book compatible with Glorantha, and you're likely to sell a lot more books.

If anything, the tone better suits a Lankhmar-like setting.

 

[Trifletraxor]

If anything, the tone better suits a Lankhmar-like setting.

 

[philreed]

Sorry. Mongoose is producing official Glorantha products, though.

 

[soltakss]

Some background on the Zistorites, what they believe in and what they are trying to achieve.

Zistorite cults/subcults/schools, not overly detailed but enough to use them as PCs/NPCs.

A description of the main areas of the Machine City and a map.

Snippets on the silly/fun/strange parts of Machine City.

The main personalities of Machine City.

Stats for typical Zistorites and their mechanical chums.

Details of the Combined Gods Alliance against the Machine City (The seige and breakdown of enemy forces).

Details of the main personalities of those opposed to the Machine City.

A proposed Timeline of how and when the Machine City is destroyed.

A series of scenarios leading up to the destruction of the Machine City.

That should fit into 96 pages, shouldn't it?

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Chaosium just released a 439 page scenario.

I really don't want a war over this, here. I'm trying to talk about the Clanking City, and what you posted looks intentionally awkward.

I'm not saying no books of longer length get made. I'm saying the industry has moved towards thin hardbacks as an operating model as the standard. White Wolf and Wizards of the Coast are perfect examples of this (and you'll note they're the two biggest companies in the market by some degree). Chaosium is tiny by comparison to these two companies - when talking about the modern industry and what trends it displays, I'm talking current market facts.

I know what I'm talking about, which is why I said it. I implore you not to threadcrap and try to start a war over this in this thread. If observation of the industry doesn't convince you, then nothing will, but that's all the evidence you'll need.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

I think from what I've seen in this thread, we should be on course so far. Thanks for shouting out, guys. I always appreciate this kind of feedback. Or, I guess...Pre-back?

Whatever.

Thanks for it, whatever it is.

That should fit into 96 pages, shouldn't it?

We shall see, Leoric. We shall see...

 

[philreed]

Chaosium is tiny by comparison to these two companies - when talking about the modern industry and what trends it displays, I'm talking current market facts.

I'll make one point and move on. Not only is Chaosium tiny, they're not exactly well known for making the best business decisions. While thick, massive books can be fun* they're not exactly the best way to run a successful, profitable company that can survive in today's market.


* Not for me, though. Anything over 256-pages is just too big for my tastes; I prefer books in the 80 to 128-page range (and hardcover).

 

[Trifletraxor]

Chaosium just released a 439 page scenario.

I really don't want a war over this, here. I'm trying to talk about the Clanking City, and what you posted looks intentionally awkward.

I'm not saying no books of longer length get made. I'm saying the industry has moved towards thin hardbacks as an operating model as the standard. White Wolf and Wizards of the Coast are perfect examples of this (and you'll note they're the two biggest companies in the market by some degree). Chaosium is tiny by comparison to these two companies - when talking about the modern industry and what trends it displays, I'm talking current market facts.

I know what I'm talking about, which is why I said it. I implore you not to threadcrap and try to start a war over this in this thread. If observation of the industry doesn't convince you, then nothing will, but that's all the evidence you'll need.

Threadcrap? Touchy and defensive today, aren't we?

SGL.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Chaosium just released a 439 page scenario.

I really don't want a war over this, here. I'm trying to talk about the Clanking City, and what you posted looks intentionally awkward.

I'm not saying no books of longer length get made. I'm saying the industry has moved towards thin hardbacks as an operating model as the standard. White Wolf and Wizards of the Coast are perfect examples of this (and you'll note they're the two biggest companies in the market by some degree). Chaosium is tiny by comparison to these two companies - when talking about the modern industry and what trends it displays, I'm talking current market facts.

I know what I'm talking about, which is why I said it. I implore you not to threadcrap and try to start a war over this in this thread. If observation of the industry doesn't convince you, then nothing will, but that's all the evidence you'll need.

Threadcrap? Touchy and defensive today, aren't we?

SGL.

If agreement is what it takes to gloss over this pointless aside about page count, then "Yes."

 

[elgrin]

That Rocks. Sounds like just the type of supplement RQ needs. Any ETA?

Late December would be my guess. It all depends on how well work continues and how many other projects need my attention. (Instant Superheroes, a new Mutants & Masterminds book, is taking most of my time right now.)

RQ supplements are selling enough to keep 'em coming then?

Not really. I want to give it a few months before making a decision, though. I'm really enjoying working with the system so I'm hopeful sales will reach a point I can afford to continue investing time in the system.

I for one hope you persevere, as I am old enough to remember supplements for RQ from ICE etc., which only helped the popularity of the system. MRQ shows the promise to return RQ once again to a position as one of the really big systems, but it will not happen overnight, and it is up to us as customers to support anyone giving quality products or it will inevitably wither on the vine with only us to blame. The current rate of output from Mongoose does make me pleased both my kids are through college, so I have some spare coin! The stuff produced, by among others DBC, is some of the best I have come across and the only reason I am adding nothing to his original thread question, is that I was not fast enough and the best points on Clanking City have been made by others.

By the bye Phil, do you have any UK distribution, as I hate dealing across national borders because the financial institutions clean you out on exchange rates?

 

[philreed]

By the bye Phil, do you have any UK distribution, as I hate dealing across national borders because the financial institutions clean you out on exchange rates?

Unfortunately, no. I haven't had much luck at all with physical product distribution (the entire distribution system is a rant for another day). Maybe one day I'll get lucky and find a company large enough to handle print sales and actually make it work.

For now, though, I concentrate on the PDF market and offer printed products as a secondary option.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I'm not saying no books of longer length get made. I'm saying the industry has moved towards thin hardbacks as an operating model as the standard. White Wolf .

Who released Ptolus at > 600pp and who, of the 7 RPG books on their "latest releases" on their website have 3 at 160pp and 3 at 192pp (The 7th is WoW:Horde Players guide, and is the most expensive product listed, so unlikely to be a 92 pp hardbak)

and Wizards of the Coast .

who, other than adventures (which are softback) have not released a D&D (/FR/Eberron) RPG book under 160pp this year. "Tome of Magic" (apparently three new magic systems) clocks in at 228 pages while the campaign arc "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft" is 224. Similar products from mongoose seem fated to be spread across 4-5 ultra-slim (and thus overpriced) hardback pamphlets.

A third example might be AEG who obviously found "Worlds Largest Dungeon" to be sufficiently succesful to follow it with "Worlds Largest City"


Cults of Glorantha 1 is too slim. The covers are thicker than the content, so the knowledge that it was deliberately split into two parts rather than published as one "normal" (for everyone except mongoose) sized book is particularly galling.

Mongoose appear to have taken two distinct pieces of marketing information "People like Hardbacks" and "People like cheaper, hence slimmer books" and combined them, failing to appreciate that at this size the books look overpriced, because no one normally buys 96 page hardbacks!

Looking at the WW and WotC lists, the "Clanking City" book looks like it should be the equivalent of the aforementiond Ravenloft book or "WoD:Shadows of Mexico" at 192 pp, so to answer DBC's question, What I'd like to see is an absolute minimum of 160 pages...

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

I'm not saying no books of longer length get made. I'm saying the industry has moved towards thin hardbacks as an operating model as the standard. White Wolf .

Who released Ptolus at > 600pp and who, of the 7 RPG books on their "latest releases" on their website have 3 at 160pp and 3 at 192pp (The 7th is WoW:Horde Players guide, and is the most expensive product listed, so unlikely to be a 92 pp hardbak)

and Wizards of the Coast .

who, other than adventures (which are softback) have not released a D&D (/FR/Eberron) RPG book under 160pp this year. "Tome of Magic" (apparently three new magic systems) clocks in at 228 pages while the campaign arc "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft" is 224. Similar products from mongoose seem fated to be spread across 4-5 ultra-slim (and thus overpriced) hardback pamphlets.

A third example might be AEG who obviously found "Worlds Largest Dungeon" to be sufficiently succesful to follow it with "Worlds Largest City"


Cults of Glorantha 1 is too slim. The covers are thicker than the content, so the knowledge that it was deliberately split into two parts rather than published as one "normal" (for everyone except mongoose) sized book is particularly galling.

Mongoose appear to have taken two distinct pieces of marketing information "People like Hardbacks" and "People like cheaper, hence slimmer books" and combined them, failing to appreciate that at this size the books look overpriced, because no one normally buys 96 page hardbacks!

Looking at the WW and WotC lists, the "Clanking City" book looks like it should be the equivalent of the aforementiond Ravenloft book or "WoD:Shadows of Mexico" at 192 pp, so to answer DBC's question, What I'd like to see is an absolute minimum of 160 pages...

And so it begins.

Many, many, many, many books by White Wolf and Wizards of the Coast are now no longer softback, but are slimmer hardbacks. You made all that effort to...I don't know...prove me wrong? The majority of WW and WotC books are now slimmer hardbacks - that's my whole and entire point. Now, while they're usually 128-pages and not 96, but I never mentioned page count at all except to say a good writer can still fit a lot into 96 pages, which is the length of many novels. I said "slimmer harbacks is the way the industry was going", and I'm right. It's an established fact. Finding these counterexamples isn't proving anything, when WotC high-ups and White Wolf high-ups have already said it's the new business model and the majority of their catalogue reflects that.

Note as well that me and Phil, who I believe may be the only people involved in the modern industry right now in this thread, have already said it's the way the industry is turning. Well, it is. Companies work to different page counts, sure, but the slimmer hardback model is what is happening.

Also, if you think the industry swapped to hardbacks because "People like hardbacks" you're operating under dangerously naive insight. It's because with the industry as it is, it's practically the only way to turn a profit.

You confuse me, honestly. I get that you don't like 96-page books. Sorry, guy. There's nothing I can do about it, and all I've pointed out so far is that even the largest companies in the industry have switched to slimmer hardbacks.

But, y'know, rag on the messenger if it gets you going. Glad I could help.

 

[Adept]

Any which way, this isn't the thread to discuss page counts.

I'm perplexed by the 96 page limit myself, but DBC started this thread (very nicely!) to ask some input on what to put in the clanking city book. Wasting bandwidth on this thread about page counts is just shooting ourselves in the foot. Let's get back on topic, shall we?

And speaking of the topic:

There have been some excellent suggestions. Details on the zistorite philosophy, technology and magic. What are they trying to achieve? What is their perspective on life? Do they see the rest of Glorantha as luddites and low tech savages? What powers their machinery.

And most of all... what is the deal with the Zistorite machine dreams?!?

A well written scenario would be excellent, but that could parhaps be published as a .pdf, like the Ralios supplement.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Details on the zistorite philosophy, technology and magic. What are they trying to achieve? What is their perspective on life? Do they see the rest of Glorantha as luddites and low tech savages? What powers their machinery.

And most of all... what is the deal with the Zistorite machine dreams?!?

I'm (in another window, actually) working on fleshing out their culture beyond 'ranks in a cult' right now, actually.

A well written scenario would be excellent, but that could parhaps be published as a .pdf, like the Ralios supplement.

...now there's a thought.

 

[Quire]

A well written scenario would be excellent, but that could parhaps be published as a .pdf, like the Ralios supplement.

...now there's a thought.

Yeah, I'd second that idea. More room in the setting book for setting, and the scenario could breathe a little easier on its own.

- Q

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Yeah, I'd second that idea. More room in the setting book for setting, and the scenario could breathe a little easier on its own.

- Q

I'll probably have to do it in my free time, I'm thinking.

I shall muse on this...