Zistorwal: the Clanking City

[Rurik]

I for one hope you persevere, as I am old enough to remember supplements for RQ from ICE etc., which only helped the popularity of the system.

Excellent supplements indeed. And actually the ICE Middle Earth campaign supplements are a great example of very good detailed campaign packs with relatively low page counts. They did all have nice big pull out maps though...

I think the strength of the supplements may have had even more to do with the popularity of the systems then the rules themselves.

MRQ shows the promise to return RQ once again to a position as one of the really big systems, but it will not happen overnight, and it is up to us as customers to support anyone giving quality products or it will inevitably wither on the vine with only us to blame.

While overall I agree with your points I have an issue with your last line there.

You see the excellent products you mention in your first point were made by Chaosium and ICE respectively. Now we are looking to publishers like Phil Reed to put out the type of supplement we need. I am all in favor of voting with my wallet, but if Mongoose releases poor quality books (I'm talking content here, specifically all the errors/editing issues) it is unfair to place the blame on us, the consumers, for not buying the product.

I have no problem with their decision to produce books in the format they have chosen. WOTC sells 160 page Hardbacks for $30, Mongoose $35, but then they are a smaller publisher. I can live with that (not my preferred format, but it is not unreasonable). That all being said, MRQ books are on the high end of what gaming supplements go for. I don't think anyone can find a more expensive line of RPG books out there, while there are definitely cheaper ones. Again, no problem there. Sure I would be happy if it was one of the cheapest lines out there, but I don't mind paying for good product.

The problem is that when paying for the most expensive books on the market it is entirely reasonable to expect good production values. Instead we get books with great promise marred by bad production. They all have errors, ranging from minor annoyances (GtSA local map names not matching place descriptions in book) to downright making the game unusable as written (combat in the core, spell descriptions in all books are full of errors or just don't make sense, etc.).

There is a whole body of customers who want this game to succeed. If this were a whole new game, not RQ or Glorantha we were talking about, I would have bailed by now. I am still buying and hoping. But if it fails and withers on the vine, I think the blame will rest firmly on Mongooses shoulders.

The stuff produced, by among others DBC, is some of the best I have come across

Do we actually have any of DBC's work to go by (other than the slim Runic Powers)? I am very excited for his books based on his postings, and he shows a genuine interest in our input, which really is appreciated. SO while I expect his work to be good, I'm not aware of there actually being any examples to judge it on (yet). Besides, even if he produces a masterpiece, can we have faith that his work won't be mangled once the manuscript gets handed off?

 

[atgxtg]

Who is Greg Stafford?

Spoken like a true Mongoose!

Pooey to you. You're not my friend any more.

Actually, I just had an alarmed PM from atgxtg saying along the lines of "Who is Greg Stafford? Don't make that joke without smileys!"

It never actually dawned on my until just then that some might actually think it was serious. I think I integrated my naivety rune this afternoon.

Okay, I'll break my own rule for this.

The reason why such a joke can be dangerous is that there is a good percentage of RQ fans who liik at the current line of MRQ products, see the direction it is going in, and suspect that "Who is Greg Stafford?" is some sort of offical Mongoose policy.

The joke winds up playing into pre-existing supicions and fears.


Sort of like what would happen if Mongoose said that they were going to print everything on 6 page hardbacks with 3 inch margins-spreading the main rules over over six hundred books, each retailing for $39.99 (or 39.99 euro) and giving every species in Glorantha (inclduing humans, dragonewts and ducks) Morokanth nose jobs.

{Yeah extreme exxageration for comic effect).

Heck if it wasn't for the fact that I had read that DBC had correponded with Greg Stafford several times already when working on GLoantha stuff, I wouldn't have known it was a joke, either. Someone who wasn't reading DBC's posts from July and August might take it seriously.

 

[Rurik]

Who is atgxtg?


EDIT:

 

[Quire]

Who is atgxtg?

EDIT:

Who said that?

-Q

 

[Rurik]

By the bye Phil, do you have any UK distribution, as I hate dealing across national borders because the financial institutions clean you out on exchange rates?

Unfortunately, no. I haven't had much luck at all with physical product distribution (the entire distribution system is a rant for another day). Maybe one day I'll get lucky and find a company large enough to handle print sales and actually make it work.

For now, though, I concentrate on the PDF market and offer printed products as a secondary option.

Is there a local UK equivelent of Lulu that could print on demand?

If not maybe someone should start one.

 

[philreed]

Is there a local UK equivelent of Lulu that could print on demand?

I've heard rumors that Lulu now has a European office (but I haven't checked into it yet).

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Who is atgxtg?

EDIT:

Who said that?

-Q

It was the wind...

 

[Voriof]

Threadcrap? Touchy and defensive today, aren't we?

SGL.

Aww geeze. Lets talk about the Clanking City, huh? I've been fascinated with the place for about fifteen years.

Not that anyone reads my posts.

Jeff

 

[Rurik]

Aww geeze. Lets talk about the Clanking City, huh? I've been fascinated with the place for about fifteen years.

Is it still threadjacking to try and jack a thread back to its' original topic?

Not that anyone reads my posts.

Jeff

Oh, Crap - I didn't realize who I was responding to. If I had known I never would have read it in the first place.

Back on topic: I want to back up the bit about a history/timeline. Very important if you want to set a game before the siege (as well as adding flavor and kinda being a RQ staple).

One thing I am not sure on is revealing what becomes of the city. I mean, the info is out there if you look, but maybe that is left out of the sourcebook. For some newbies to the big G it might be fun NOT knowing what will come to pass, and it could be detailed in a future adventure.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Not that anyone reads my posts.

Jeff

Actually, I thought you were Captain Popular here, Herr Kyer. And I always find your stuff useful, be it in my Inbox or on the forum.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

One thing I am not sure on is revealing what becomes of the city. I mean, the info is out there if you look, but maybe that is left out of the sourcebook. For some newbies to the big G it might be fun NOT knowing what will come to pass, and it could be detailed in a future adventure.

My eternal dilemma, there.

I like the impending doom of the setting, the hidden truth that it is all ultimately futile. It appeals to me much in the way the Warhammer world's sense of oncoming doom appeals to me, and the same way it did in Werewolf: the Apocalypse. So I like to mention it for flavour.

Of course, the Second Age is a valid and stand-alone era, so going on about What Comes Next too much is a bit of a turn-off. A good balance is the key. I think leaving out the ultimate fate of the Clanking City is part of that key, there. I'm cool with listing what goes on there, who lives there, why the place was built in the first place, and so on...but the fate of it is something I'd prefer to leave as allusions made and inferences...uh, inferred.

 

[Voriof]

Not that anyone reads my posts.

Jeff

Actually, I thought you were Captain Popular here, Herr Kyer. And I always find your stuff useful, be it in my Inbox or on the forum.

Er. You may be right. That's actually kinda frightening. But hey, I hope that my suggestions are of some use to you. I really am looking forward to your take on Zistorwal... and the Zistorite's peculiar form of Malkionism.

Who knows? Maybe their recycling-rune entity actually exists. Or maybe they're just another pyramid scheme that finally collapses under its own imposibilitiy.

Me? I am torn as to wanting to be a part of it or to besiege it. I suppose it depends if I'm playing or GMing. Yeah, I want me a land dreadnaughty.

Jeff

P.S. I still think Leonardo the Scientist from the 3rd Age is a Machine Cultist who somehow survived.

 

[Quire]

OFFTOPIC:

I've heard rumors that Lulu now has a European office (but I haven't checked into it yet).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4782018.stm

These guys might be worth talking to about it too:

http://www.lulu.com/jr8

- Q

 

[Quire]

Not that anyone reads my posts.

Who said that?

- Q

 

[StephenT]

Having read this thread, what I'd now love to see is DBC slip an easter egg into the section on the history and mythology of the Zistorites, saying that they're regarded as heretics by orthodox Malkioni because they divide their version of the Abiding Book into half a dozen 96-page smaller volumes.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Having read this thread, what I'd now love to see is DBC slip an easter egg into the section on the history and mythology of the Zistorites, saying that they're regarded as heretics by orthodox Malkioni because they divide their version of the Abiding Book into half a dozen 96-page smaller volumes.

...y'know, that appeals to me on so many levels.

 

[richaje]

Just show us that you understand Glorantha, that you have read Middle Sea Empire, King of Sartar and hell even spoken to Greg Stafford and Jeff Richard, if you don't know who the latter is then you need to, as he has been working with Greg on the nature of the Zistorites for the last year. Most of all make it fun, playable and right.

Howdy, Jeff Richard here. My recommendation for anyone who wants to understand the Zistorites is to get a copy of The Middle Sea Empire - especially pgs 41-43 and 48-50. That contains Greg and my current understanding of the Zistorites from the God Learners' point of view. I'd say it is impossible to get a good feel for the Zistorites without having read those sections (unfortunately, those sections were not yet complete in time for Robin). Hopefully our Hendriking/Orlanthi unfinished work will be out next year which will give the Orlanthi/EWF perspective on the Machine Wars (called the Iron Wars by the Hendrikings). Also, for anyone going to Tentacles next year, there will be lots of Zistorite goodness in the big Gloranthan LARP.

Anyways, I look forward to whatever you come up with. I'm sure it will be fun and entertaining. Just remember to include the automated prayer wheels and the combinatory engines that shall cleanse and purify Glorantha.

Cheers -

Jeff

 

[Voriof]

Howdy, Jeff Richard here. My recommendation for anyone who wants to understand the Zistorites is to get a copy of The Middle Sea Empire - especially pgs 41-43 and 48-50. That contains Greg and my current understanding of the Zistorites from the God Learners' point of view. I'd say it is impossible to get a good feel for the Zistorites without having read those sections (unfortunately, those sections were not yet complete in time for Robin). Hopefully our Hendriking/Orlanthi unfinished work will be out next year which will give the Orlanthi/EWF perspective on the Machine Wars (called the Iron Wars by the Hendrikings). Also, for anyone going to Tentacles next year, there will be lots of Zistorite goodness in the big Gloranthan LARP.

Yes, Greg sent me an early draft of Middle Sea which was very, VERY useful for writing about the Malkioni - including the Zistorites - for what has become Cults II.

I particularly like what happened to the Abiding Book, though it was kind of sad.

Anyways, I look forward to whatever you come up with. I'm sure it will be fun and entertaining. Just remember to include the automated prayer wheels and the combinatory engines that shall cleanse and purify Glorantha.

Cheers -

Jeff

Indeed.

Reuse. Reduce. Recycle.

Voriof

 

[richaje]

BTW, the Middle Sea Empire actually has more stuff in it than Our Glorious Empire (the Tentacles auction book). Although Our Glorious Empire is much much much prettier (Claudia Schille did a fantastic job with the formatting, artistic arrangement and binding). Some of the new stuff is much more information on the Zistorites (a nice bit of material that complements the Giorgos Scroll) and scads of stuff on God Learner heroquesting.

Fwiw, I think is a mistake to assume that the focus of the Zistorites is mere technology - or even some flesh and machine god-thing. That is the claim of the ignorant, the foreigner or their enemies (and the Second Age Glorantha Book is not written by Zistorites!). The Zistorites are every bit as grandly ambitious as the original God Project of the First Age or the Lunars of the Third Age. Which is why they are such wonderful fun IMO (although they don't seem to have the nobility of Lokamayadon - but maybe we haven't talked to the right Zistorite yet!).

Jeff

 

[elgrin]

I for one hope you persevere, as I am old enough to remember supplements for RQ from ICE etc., which only helped the popularity of the system.

Excellent supplements indeed. And actually the ICE Middle Earth campaign supplements are a great example of very good detailed campaign packs with relatively low page counts. They did all have nice big pull out maps though...

I think the strength of the supplements may have had even more to do with the popularity of the systems then the rules themselves.

MRQ shows the promise to return RQ once again to a position as one of the really big systems, but it will not happen overnight, and it is up to us as customers to support anyone giving quality products or it will inevitably wither on the vine with only us to blame.

While overall I agree with your points I have an issue with your last line there.

You see the excellent products you mention in your first point were made by Chaosium and ICE respectively. Now we are looking to publishers like Phil Reed to put out the type of supplement we need. I am all in favor of voting with my wallet, but if Mongoose releases poor quality books (I'm talking content here, specifically all the errors/editing issues) it is unfair to place the blame on us, the consumers, for not buying the product.

I have no problem with their decision to produce books in the format they have chosen. WOTC sells 160 page Hardbacks for $30, Mongoose $35, but then they are a smaller publisher. I can live with that (not my preferred format, but it is not unreasonable). That all being said, MRQ books are on the high end of what gaming supplements go for. I don't think anyone can find a more expensive line of RPG books out there, while there are definitely cheaper ones. Again, no problem there. Sure I would be happy if it was one of the cheapest lines out there, but I don't mind paying for good product.

The problem is that when paying for the most expensive books on the market it is entirely reasonable to expect good production values. Instead we get books with great promise marred by bad production. They all have errors, ranging from minor annoyances (GtSA local map names not matching place descriptions in book) to downright making the game unusable as written (combat in the core, spell descriptions in all books are full of errors or just don't make sense, etc.).

There is a whole body of customers who want this game to succeed. If this were a whole new game, not RQ or Glorantha we were talking about, I would have bailed by now. I am still buying and hoping. But if it fails and withers on the vine, I think the blame will rest firmly on Mongooses shoulders.

The stuff produced, by among others DBC, is some of the best I have come across

Do we actually have any of DBC's work to go by (other than the slim Runic Powers)? I am very excited for his books based on his postings, and he shows a genuine interest in our input, which really is appreciated. SO while I expect his work to be good, I'm not aware of there actually being any examples to judge it on (yet). Besides, even if he produces a masterpiece, can we have faith that his work won't be mangled once the manuscript gets handed off?

I hope nobody will object if I reply quickly, just to basically agree with many of the points you make. For the others, perhaps I did not make myself as clear as I should.

I agree that we need quality, but Mongoose is trying to (effectively) resurrect a moribund system into a mainsteam position which it deserves, and is doing it on an extremely short timescale. We all appreciate this will give glitches, and yes I am busy myself dumping those elements of the system that I do not feel work, for my own house rules. I was trying to say that with the Mongoose effort being so focussed on getting the system up and running, that we need to support those outside sources who are investing effort to produce good quality (again in bold) support material. Yes poor quality will kill any system as gamers cannot afford to waste money.

The reference to DBC was actually based on the (limited) work which we have to date and the projection of that, onto his feel and sympathy with our favourite ethos, however it was not aimed specifically at an individual but the whole team that Mongoose have assembled to put their efforts into RQ.

elgrin