Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
As Winston Churchill once said, “Democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.”
Yanks in Space...
- Thread starter Spartan159
- Start date
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Eventually, they'll get it right.
To Tha Moon!
Cosmic Mongoose
The kind here. At 0:24 I'm not sure what the Jupiter 2 uses. But they are definitely Yanks in Space behind the ship. In several ways.
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The Imperium is a hereditary autocracy, which only manifests as a decentralized oligarchy with considerable opportunities for personal and economic freedom due to its enormous diversity (meaning there are many conflicting powerful interest groups), and the distances involved which make overall control difficult. They even let member planets go to war with each other, which probably is not indicative of a government that puts high value on the rights and well-being of the individual, or of a government that is really capable of exerting control to protect its citizens. On the other hand, it seems there are many opportunities to live happy and free lives living in peaceful communities under enlightened forms of government.
IMTU, the Imperium is not good or bad, it just is. The royal family commands loyalty, and individual members are usually popular, both personal and abstract, but sometimes not - and this depends on who you ask. The imperial bureaucracies are efficient and command vast resources, and usually act sensibly, but there can be corrupt elements, even psychopaths or idiots in charge of certain things, and there are pathologies in the organizations, such as the obsession with social class in the Navy. Nobles sometimes have massive power, and sometimes get rebellious, and their causes might be good or bad depending on your perspective. The whole thing could fall apart in civil war pretty easily, but then the royal family and bureaucracies are so competent and well-resourced that their constant work just about holds it together well enough to work for now.
Planetary governments might want to join for various reasons, but usually protection, which being in the Imperium would usually but not always provides its members, particularaly against external actors. Could it do better by having hard and fast rules, instead of depending on personal decisions of nobles ? Perhaps, but then it wouldn't be the Imperium, and the size and diversity makes it hard to have hard and fast rules..
In short, it could be regarded as an evil extractive empire, or as prosperous and voluntary federation of planets, and everything in between, depending on the context and both views could be right from the perspective of the observer. Think for example, of the American role in the real world, (or the British in the 19th century might be a better analogy): some see as an evil self-interested empire built on oppression and exploitation, while others regard it as a defender of civilized values and source of peace and stability. Both things can be true, it is a big world. Or for the 3I, it is a big galaxy.
IMTU, the Imperium is not good or bad, it just is. The royal family commands loyalty, and individual members are usually popular, both personal and abstract, but sometimes not - and this depends on who you ask. The imperial bureaucracies are efficient and command vast resources, and usually act sensibly, but there can be corrupt elements, even psychopaths or idiots in charge of certain things, and there are pathologies in the organizations, such as the obsession with social class in the Navy. Nobles sometimes have massive power, and sometimes get rebellious, and their causes might be good or bad depending on your perspective. The whole thing could fall apart in civil war pretty easily, but then the royal family and bureaucracies are so competent and well-resourced that their constant work just about holds it together well enough to work for now.
Planetary governments might want to join for various reasons, but usually protection, which being in the Imperium would usually but not always provides its members, particularaly against external actors. Could it do better by having hard and fast rules, instead of depending on personal decisions of nobles ? Perhaps, but then it wouldn't be the Imperium, and the size and diversity makes it hard to have hard and fast rules..
In short, it could be regarded as an evil extractive empire, or as prosperous and voluntary federation of planets, and everything in between, depending on the context and both views could be right from the perspective of the observer. Think for example, of the American role in the real world, (or the British in the 19th century might be a better analogy): some see as an evil self-interested empire built on oppression and exploitation, while others regard it as a defender of civilized values and source of peace and stability. Both things can be true, it is a big world. Or for the 3I, it is a big galaxy.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
I completely agree with you.
The Imperium provides three things that better the lives of its citizens:
- Internal peace, most of the time
- Free Trade
- A common defense against external foes.
Providing these three things has led to an overall increase in tech level, prosperity, culture, and all the other things 'civilization' provides. And it does so at far, FAR less cost than if individual worlds or clusters of worlds tried to do this themselves. Yes, there are also negative things. There are corrupt groups, megacorporate shenanigans, and all the other negative things that decadence inflicts.
Such is the way with all civilizations ever created.
The Third Imperium drug better than 14 sectors kicking and screaming out of the Long Night and barbarism and poor thanks she gets for the effort. It cannot solve every problem, address every ill, or be absolutely fair to every sophont within it. It can create conditions where the problems can be addressed without fear; it can put systems in place so that issues, problems, and ills may be addressed, and it is certainly more just, more fair, and less imperialistic [yes, I get the irony] than nearly all of its neighbors. It is not the best government. Other civilizations do some things better than the Imperium. But the Imperium is the best compromise of governance given the 'physics' of the milieu [no FTL commo, etc.].
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CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
"Do you want another Long Night? Because that's how you get another Long Night." - any high SOC character of mine replying to criticisms of the Third Imperium
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Take a look at the US in the early years. You had the same communications difficulties. States ran themselves as individual countries that came together under the banner of the United States mainly for mutual defense against governments on the other side of the Atlantic. So, planets are effectively the cities. Subsectors are effectively the States. Sectors are effectively a grouping of States. The Imperium is effectively a grouping of countries (Sectors), such as the Roman Senate under Imperial Rule with its far-flung providences.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Zhodani didn't have a Long Night. "Shhhhhh! We'll hear none of your mindworm propaganda here!" lol
WHULorigan
Cosmic Mongoose
@MonsterX / @ottarrus :
I agree with you both, but I think I would make the following observation, however:
If we keep in mind some of the published material on the Imperium from the early days of CT concerning the Spinward Marches (see CT:Sup 3), The Imperium was said to have granted extensive "home-rule" measures in the "Frontier" of the Spinward Marches due to the distances involved, and that the Imperial Navy was otherwise stretched too thin to be able to effectively intervene in every little dispute and still effectively do its primary job of defending the borders and warfighting against foreign adversaries (Thus the reason for the extensive "home-rule" provisions).
This means the original concept was that the Marches was a little different from what would have been encountered on the worlds of the "Imperial Core", where I would guess 1000+ year old cultures and (local) Imperial political entrenchment had become much more commonplace (whether de facto or de jure). So perhaps your statement above is more reflective of the Frontiers, Borders, and Backwaters (particular those isolated by distance and Astrography, like "the Claw").
I agree with you both, but I think I would make the following observation, however:
If we keep in mind some of the published material on the Imperium from the early days of CT concerning the Spinward Marches (see CT:Sup 3), The Imperium was said to have granted extensive "home-rule" measures in the "Frontier" of the Spinward Marches due to the distances involved, and that the Imperial Navy was otherwise stretched too thin to be able to effectively intervene in every little dispute and still effectively do its primary job of defending the borders and warfighting against foreign adversaries (Thus the reason for the extensive "home-rule" provisions).
This means the original concept was that the Marches was a little different from what would have been encountered on the worlds of the "Imperial Core", where I would guess 1000+ year old cultures and (local) Imperial political entrenchment had become much more commonplace (whether de facto or de jure). So perhaps your statement above is more reflective of the Frontiers, Borders, and Backwaters (particular those isolated by distance and Astrography, like "the Claw").
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
"Traveller assumes a remote centralized government"
<any will do but we will call ours an Imperium>
"On the frontiers*, extensive home rule provisions allow planetary populations to choose their own forms of government, raise and maintain armed forces for local security, pass and enforce laws governing local conduct, and regulate (within limits) commerce."
<"on the frontiers" always made me think things were done a lot differently in the core sectors>
<do these provisions enable or just recognise the reality...>
Defense of the frontier is mostly provided by local indigenous forces, stiffened by scattered lmperial naval bases manned by small but extremely sophisticated forces. Conflicting local interests often settle their differences by force of arms, with lmperial forces looking quietly the other way, unable to effectively intervene as a police force in any but the most wide-spread of conflicts without jeopardizing their primary mission of the defense of the realm. Only when local conflicts threaten either the security or the economy of the area do lmperial forces take an active hand, and then it is with speed and overwhelming force."
<don't mess with the nobility and the megcorporations, pay your taxes, don't restrict the ability of others to pat their taxes or else>
<any will do but we will call ours an Imperium>
"On the frontiers*, extensive home rule provisions allow planetary populations to choose their own forms of government, raise and maintain armed forces for local security, pass and enforce laws governing local conduct, and regulate (within limits) commerce."
<"on the frontiers" always made me think things were done a lot differently in the core sectors>
<do these provisions enable or just recognise the reality...>
Defense of the frontier is mostly provided by local indigenous forces, stiffened by scattered lmperial naval bases manned by small but extremely sophisticated forces. Conflicting local interests often settle their differences by force of arms, with lmperial forces looking quietly the other way, unable to effectively intervene as a police force in any but the most wide-spread of conflicts without jeopardizing their primary mission of the defense of the realm. Only when local conflicts threaten either the security or the economy of the area do lmperial forces take an active hand, and then it is with speed and overwhelming force."
<don't mess with the nobility and the megcorporations, pay your taxes, don't restrict the ability of others to pat their taxes or else>
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
We know that the Romans tried to maintain unity through the Imperial cult.
The Persians were somewhat laissez faire, so we're told, as long as you paid taxes and raised levies.
The Persians were somewhat laissez faire, so we're told, as long as you paid taxes and raised levies.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
That only works if you can sound like Mallory Archer
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
I usually aim for Major-General Stanley.That only works if you can sound like Mallory Archer
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
Well, the Imperium is well aware that everything 'West' of Vland is in danger of being cut off by one charismatic Vargr who can keep his shit together. That's why the Corridor Fleet is a full Sector sized Fleet with only 8 some-odd subsectors to support it. That's also why there was so much industrial development in Deneb and the Trailing subsectors of the Marches. They may have to support themselves if any one of several nightmare scenarios occur. One thing the Imperium did take from Vilani culture was the ability to pre-plan.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
"In many respects, the expansion of man into one frontier after another, and its resulting effects on his social and governmental institutions, can be seen as an alternating series of instability and stability in the relative efficiency of transportation and communication. A society will expand into a new frontier as its transportation technology allows it to do so, and its expansion is generally limited only by the sophistication of its transport system."
<which would in time be defined as trade lanes underpinning the xboat system>
"However, if communication technology has not kept up with transportation technology, stresses develop between the mother
country/capital and the provinces."
<is this assuming the mother country/capital is or has been expansive?>
"These stresses are resolved either by a technological advance in communication (the telegraph, for example, ended the possibility of secession by the western territories from the United States, by a severance of ties between the new territory and the home government (the gradual
process of colonial independence in the western hemisphere in the 18th and 19th centuries),"
<the British Empire achieved its greatness during the 19th century, and many other European powers (even the US) established colonial holdings trying to emulate this, the 18th and 19th centuries were perhaps the greatest centuries of empire building since the mongols>
"or the arrival of a new home government generally involving a much higher degree of local autonomy than had previously existed (the Persian systern of Satrapies)."
<something of the Vilani here, I wonder what if the Imperium had been more Persian Empire than Romano-British>
<which would in time be defined as trade lanes underpinning the xboat system>
"However, if communication technology has not kept up with transportation technology, stresses develop between the mother
country/capital and the provinces."
<is this assuming the mother country/capital is or has been expansive?>
"These stresses are resolved either by a technological advance in communication (the telegraph, for example, ended the possibility of secession by the western territories from the United States, by a severance of ties between the new territory and the home government (the gradual
process of colonial independence in the western hemisphere in the 18th and 19th centuries),"
<the British Empire achieved its greatness during the 19th century, and many other European powers (even the US) established colonial holdings trying to emulate this, the 18th and 19th centuries were perhaps the greatest centuries of empire building since the mongols>
"or the arrival of a new home government generally involving a much higher degree of local autonomy than had previously existed (the Persian systern of Satrapies)."
<something of the Vilani here, I wonder what if the Imperium had been more Persian Empire than Romano-British>
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Phrasing!
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
Zhodani have thought police.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
"Could you step out of the vehicle, sir? It seems like you might have had too much to think."
Now, of all the other Empires, the Zhodani do provide an... interesting... alternative to the Imperium's way of doing things.
This is something we will explore further in future titles over the next few years. After all, there is a lot for the Zhodani to shout about - they have a society rooted in science and reason, they are driven by exploration, the free market is present but well-regulated, the truth is prized, and they have an extremely progressive attitude towards crime.
You can have all of that, if you just hand over a teeny-weeny bit of freedom of thought... and then you will be happy (o, you will be happy).
Worth it? I mean, it is a solution. For good or ill.
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