Spartan159
Banded Mongoose
I apologize, but I am beginning to be very upset by the seemingly regular use of "Yanks in Space" as some sort of negative implication.. Is there something that needs to be discussed here?
Yanks in Space...
- Thread starter Spartan159
- Start date
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Depends on context.
No doubt connected with Hollywood cultural imperialism.
No doubt connected with Hollywood cultural imperialism.
It is context-dependent. One sense is a references to depictions of military forces in SF. Military SF is a sub-genre pioneered by Americans (Starship Troopers) and tends to draw on US writers' own military experiences and doctrine.
It can also be used as a shorthand for the tendency in Golden Age American SF to emphasise the positives of the expansion of human civilisation into space and the spreading of American/humanistic/democratic values versus the British SF tendency to be more pessimistic, such as War of the Worlds' anti-imperialistic stance, much of John Wyndham's and J.G. Ballard's writing, and so on.
Or, from TV, it's the difference between original Star Trek and Quatermass.
Absolutely no connection between one power rising and one declining, of course...
It can also be used as a shorthand for the tendency in Golden Age American SF to emphasise the positives of the expansion of human civilisation into space and the spreading of American/humanistic/democratic values versus the British SF tendency to be more pessimistic, such as War of the Worlds' anti-imperialistic stance, much of John Wyndham's and J.G. Ballard's writing, and so on.
Or, from TV, it's the difference between original Star Trek and Quatermass.
Absolutely no connection between one power rising and one declining, of course...
JustEastOfTheEdge
Cosmic Mongoose
Be upset if you must. Others are not responsible for what may or may not upset you. But why would anyone here intend it in any derogatory sense? But even if they did, just ignore and move on. Life is too short.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Nope. It has been used for the past 40 something years to describe the change to the nature of the Imperium once the FFW kicked off.
When the setting was first detailed in early adventures, supplements and TAS news in JTAS the Imperium was corrupt, in decline, and guilty of all sorts of things that would make them the bad guys.
Examples:
disappearing political opponents
incarceration without trial
enslaving alien races
experimenting on said alien races
Once the FFW kicked off the Zhodani were painted as the bad guys and the Imperium as the white hats, and at the same time their military was detailed along US lines - hence yanks in space.
I'm more offended by the casual racism still used towards the Vargr and to a more limited extent the Aslan.
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paltrysum
Emperor Mongoose
As a 'Yank', I don't want to see an unimaginative setting that makes me feel like I'm in a retread American action movie. Traveller's inspirations were in the sci-fi of the 1940s-70s, and I love seeing those influences, but let's keep the references to American capitalism, current culture and values as much on the sidelines as we can. The far future is 3,500 years from now. It should feel like it!
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Brits in space tend to be in the Navy; Flandry is an example.
And, of course:
And, of course:
It is very much has negative implications and the mods should do something about it. It’s often used as an attack when people don’t agree with an interpretation of the setting or rules or when they think they know that the person they are arguing with is American. One example of this is various attacks on the xboat system calling it a Yank ideal ignoring the fact that relay systems for news/mail have existed since before the Romans formed a city state.
In the worse uses of the term it has the implications that how dare a Yank play this game or talk in this forum. It really is a form of bigotry but I doubt anything will be done about it.
In the worse uses of the term it has the implications that how dare a Yank play this game or talk in this forum. It really is a form of bigotry but I doubt anything will be done about it.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
'Yanks in Space' isn't anti-American in the modern sense of the term.
Way back in the LBB days, the Imperium wasn't really all that detailed or fleshed out. Mostly, it was used as consequence for poor PC decisions... 'don't turn pirate, or the Imperial Navy will come after you' or 'you know that's a violation of Imperial High Law, right?', that sort of thing.
As Traveller grew, the nature of the Imperium changed, mostly through the content in JTAS. The Imperium and its institutions [the Nobles, the megacorps, the military -- but oddly enough not a lot about law enforcement or the courts system] took up more and more page count.
Some old timers, especially Europeans, saw those changes as American style influences or American policy methods. A lot of this sensibility comes from WWII and the Cold War eras where American military personnel were 'over-paid, over-sexed, and over here'. Brash Americans who, despite any and all attempts otherwise, can't seem to do things quietly and walk the Earth in the absolute assurance that they, and nobody else, Know How To Do Things Right.
This is not entirely unfair. Over the years the Imperium became more 'Marshall Plan' and less 'Foreign Office', if that makes any sense. Some folks feel the Imperium is too interventionist or corporatized. Some folks feel that the Imperium has become too soft and humanitarian [sophont-arian?]. Others think that the Imperium uses the Imperial Marines as a guillotine to hang over the necks of worlds. But the 'Yanks in Space' crowd can't really decide if that's 'white hat' or 'black hat' Imperium.
In any event, 'Yanks in Space' isn't a comment about Americans or the US... it's an inference to a certain American style political and foreign policy imperialism that has dominated the world for the last 80 years or so.
Way back in the LBB days, the Imperium wasn't really all that detailed or fleshed out. Mostly, it was used as consequence for poor PC decisions... 'don't turn pirate, or the Imperial Navy will come after you' or 'you know that's a violation of Imperial High Law, right?', that sort of thing.
As Traveller grew, the nature of the Imperium changed, mostly through the content in JTAS. The Imperium and its institutions [the Nobles, the megacorps, the military -- but oddly enough not a lot about law enforcement or the courts system] took up more and more page count.
Some old timers, especially Europeans, saw those changes as American style influences or American policy methods. A lot of this sensibility comes from WWII and the Cold War eras where American military personnel were 'over-paid, over-sexed, and over here'. Brash Americans who, despite any and all attempts otherwise, can't seem to do things quietly and walk the Earth in the absolute assurance that they, and nobody else, Know How To Do Things Right.
This is not entirely unfair. Over the years the Imperium became more 'Marshall Plan' and less 'Foreign Office', if that makes any sense. Some folks feel the Imperium is too interventionist or corporatized. Some folks feel that the Imperium has become too soft and humanitarian [sophont-arian?]. Others think that the Imperium uses the Imperial Marines as a guillotine to hang over the necks of worlds. But the 'Yanks in Space' crowd can't really decide if that's 'white hat' or 'black hat' Imperium.
In any event, 'Yanks in Space' isn't a comment about Americans or the US... it's an inference to a certain American style political and foreign policy imperialism that has dominated the world for the last 80 years or so.
Do You realize that this sentence counter dictates itself
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
No, it really doesn't.Do You realize that this sentence counter dictates itself
Most Europeans that I've met don't mind Americans on an individual basis, provided that neither the Euro or the Ami aren't assholes
Most Americans visiting a foreign country are polite and curious and willing to accept local life as they find it. Most Europeans, well, most folks in any nation encountering a foreigner, are interested in the foreigner, are willing to help with matters of culture, are happy to give directions, etc.
None of these people are making policy decisions that effect millions of people.
But when you're a German or a Filipino and your job is effected by some American policy or you live in an area that's been flooded with American servicemen, even the best of intentions can go sideways at the drop of a hat.
See the difference?
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
Not getting too very nitpicky here [at least, I hope I'm not] but MWM's military service was in Cambodia during the Vietnam War in an active combat unit. That's an ENTIRELY different kettle of fish than the 'Band of Brothers' prepping for D-Day in England or the Subic Bay USN base in the Philippines [which the US had for almost 100 years].
Wartime and peacetime interactions are completely different kinds of cultural influence, as the French and Germans will tell you. In my own experience, there were a fairly large subset of Germans in the 80s that were grateful we stood as a bulwark against the Soviets, but would probably been happier if we'd just conquered the Nazis and then taken our asses back home. They often complained that 'Germany was less German every day'.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
Ironic, considering recent history.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
Well, when the GWOT kicked off and some of the more reactionary of my friends and family were asking why al'Qaeda attacked us, I explained to them that America's greatest exports are 'burgers, bimbos, and B-movies', that most tribal and conservative cultures think of the US as nothing more than McDonalds, Baywatch, and Rambo movies. Yes, the educated understood the good things we bring to the table, but a culture is often defined by it's art. Modern English culture certainly has the Victorian era at its base, but you have to add Doctor Who, the Beatles, punk rock, and soccer hooligans into it too. What we see influences what we think.
And that's not even getting into the effect of the internet on cultures other than those that produce the most content.
This is why there should be a HUGE difference between the High-Tech Hi-Pop culture producing worlds and the backwater colonial worlds.
And that's not even getting into the effect of the internet on cultures other than those that produce the most content.
This is why there should be a HUGE difference between the High-Tech Hi-Pop culture producing worlds and the backwater colonial worlds.
To Tha Moon!
Cosmic Mongoose
This could be a great title of a Third Imperium tell-all book about Nobles and the Prostitutes who give them Hand Jobs.
Too adult?
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
"What have the Romans ever done for us?"
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
No, too juvenile
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
I live literally on the other side of the world from Europe, so EU cultural mandates aren't often in my news feed. OTOH I could see where a Frenchman would get pretty annoyed at a Swede and a German telling him what French culture is. Any of the other Euro nations would get pretty stiff at the idea that an outsider was dictating culture to them.
