WWII Evo?

[duskdealer]

On the note of units with SMGs, there were very few by comparrison with the standard infantry section. (Probably why we called them a RIFLE section)

Agree with tanks being slow and cumbersome by comparrison, but also think that as WW2 tanks arn't likely to be fighting against an Challenger 2 it makes little difference making them significantly weaker than modern tanks.

Rules need to be suggested then either rejected or accepted, not hidden away for fear of upsetting each other...

 

[Anpu42]

quote]Drop the range between 6 and 8", and this will be fine. Otherwise it is pure fantasy.[/b][/quote]
True, but unless you Change the Fire Zone Size they could not fire out of it more or less.
My reason for the 12" Range.
1] It wold make it posable to fire across any street not just some on the table
2] This game does not have realistic Ranges. [The M4 5.56mm has 1/3 the Range of the M1A2's 120mm Main gun]
3] Most of the players I talked to said the sme thing. "That is a sucky range why would I want to take an SMG over a Rifle"

 

[The Old Soldier]

Your reason one makes no since to me, what does it matter about the FZ? So you have to get close to use the SMG. Bad enough that the weapon will get extra mileage due to the FZ it will create. It's not like the firer can hurt himself or the unit he is with. If you want to beef up the weapon I'd rather see it give suppression on a 1+. In other words all dice count when this weapon opens up at it very short range.

As for the range thing being inaccurate for all weapons. While that is true, weapon ranges and real live fire don't mix well. Weapons tend to fire at a much close range that the full range of the weapon. Combination of terrain, human eyesight, and controlled fire.

Again Submachine guns should be a CLOSE engagement weapon, of about 6 inches.

 

[The Old Soldier]

Oh!, one last thing. Since the SMG is really a assault weapon/close combat weapon. Why not keep the range very short, but give it bonuses in CC?

 

[DM]

3] Most of the players I talked to said the sme thing. "That is a sucky range why would I want to take an SMG over a Rifle"

Perhaps there's a clue in the fact that most soldiers carried rifles rather than SMGs

 

[Richgo22]

Hmm, good idea TOS. Give the SMG 4 inches (mean 10 inches on the max of the FZ), 2D6 damage dice, no extrem range, 2+ suppression and a additional D6 in CC.
That would make it a very differnt weapon, compared to the rifle. And the reason for the SMG choice: Dominate CC! You can always choose the target point of your FZ! So SMGs could shoot at 6 to 8 inches with effect.

I can live with the -1 while on the move for tanks. But that would be enough of the rules for tanks. Leave anything else like BFE. Two moves, two shots, one main gun shot per turn. Crush terrain of 1 inch.

Besides: Challengers CAN fight T34s. The Russian hid thousands of T34 away in their mining tunnel bunkers. That would be a crasy addition to the game: Russian seperatists field venerable T34s and T85 in BFE!

We also need rules for barbed wire, tank obstacles, tank trenches and maybe even trenches for the infantry themselves. Dig in tanks also should be mentioned.

 

[The Old Soldier]

Yep, Here is what I would want to see personally for SMGs.

Range 4" to 6" maximum.

Damage 1xD6 Suppression 2+, remove casualities from SMG fire before checking for Suppression. (This will really make suppression more likely without having a bunch of extra rules)

CC dependant on how you do other troops, give the SMG trooper 1 more CC dice to roll than other infantry troopers.


On other subject, you may consider thinking out the average FZ to be shorten to 5" or even 4". But that is just a thought to tighten up the game some. That will still give you a big 10" diameter or a 8" inch one. Still plenty big. Allow large Artillery barrages the larger 12" ones.

 

[Mage]

Have not bothered to read the first 7 pages of this monster, but it sounds good. What would be the hoped for first four factions?

 

[Anpu42]

6” SMG Range
Let’s look at that on the Table.
A Two Lane Main Street with Parking
A Man is In a West Facing Building on One side of the Street.
There is 1” of Side Walk
1.5” of Parking
1.5” of North Bound Traffic
1.5” of South Bound Traffic
1.5” of Parking
1” of Side Walk
That is 8” of Range to the Building, Making only 4” if the FZ able to hit targets
A Four Lane Road would be 12.5” and out of the range of the Building.

 

[The Old Soldier]

Sorry, most roads were small. Most people did not own a car, and streets were very narrow. Too narrow for military vehicles except small ones. There was little to NO parking, and people walked and lived within 10 miles of small towns.

When I was a boy, most of the roads around me had no parking areas. People just pulled off the road into the grass if they had to park. Most folks in towns did not own cars, or if so they only had one. My roads other than a small two lane highway near my home was single lane gravel and dirt roads and if someone was coming in the other direction, you had to pull over to let them through. Bridges were single lanes. And that was in Rural America only 40 years ago. In Europe in was even less vehicles, towns were generally self contained communities.

A BIG road in 1940 was two narrow lanes. Even today outside the large cities the roads are still very narrow. Most folks in 1940 did not own a car, and horse drawn transportation was still the norm.

If you ever get to go to a village in the countryside of Europe do so, if not take a look at pictures. Homes are butted up against each other, with small lanes running around the city squares, they they indeed are square, since many run at all kinds of angles and sizes.

Your going to have to adjust your views through the lens of time, not by todays standards.

BTW: A weapon can only fire into a building as far as LOS, in other words most weapons are direct fire and as such you can't hit what you can't see. Since a size one target can only be hit within 1" by direct fire weapons from a window, there is no need for anything more than a 1" from the point of the FZ to be considered.

 

[Anpu42]

I know that was going to be the argument, but I am talking about the TABLE TOP. You don't place your buildings 3" from each other if you want a major road; it is usually 6" to 12"+ Apart.
You tell me what a Potential new player is going to say as he tries to shoot at the SS Squad 9" away across the Street and the Bullets will not even travel that far.
I thought the game was about having Fun, not Utter Realism in ranges. I know a guy who could top a tree at 300m form the hip with an M-76 Grenades Launcher. That should allow him to fire it across the street, but no they give a 40mm Grenades an 18" range witch by scale is roughly 36m that is 1/10 the range.
As a WH40k player also most of there Bolt Pistol [That has been Described as a Machine Pistol] have a 12" Range, that is enough to shoot 1/2 way across the center of board if you are using the standard 12" Deployment Rules. The Bolter has a 24" Range. The same as the...M16A4.
At this point we should be looking at the Mechanics and how to recruit Players. Most Table top players play...WH40k [at least in my aria]. I the Mechanics feel similar then it is easy to recruit.
I have a lot of problems with the Table Top Scale, but it is an acceptable Suspension of Belief that makes the game enjoyable. I have played one of the most realistic Fire Arm games ever…Aftermath. I also play Twilight: 2000. I also play Shadowrun that has problems of its own. The current Game I run is Weird Gear Krieg Wars, a cross between Gear Krieg and Weird Wars. I have been using the AD&D 3.5 Miniatures Handbook for the Combat and you know what…It Works, why it is simple and Quick and Dirty. Pistols have a Range of 6” SMG’s 15” and Rifles a 30” Range and it works, why the weapons have a good range. The players don’t complain about the ranges, why there are basically the same for both sides and a SMG can fire 30m.

 

[Richgo22]

TOS, again, calm down. Let this guy go his way. You ranting is reserved for us. . .

We do not have to discuss that WWII SMGs were different from nowadays SMGs. Or buildings in WWII Europe (you can still place buildings closer together). And we do not have to compare BFG to 40K. . . if someone likes 40K, then stay with it and leave us guys alone!

I shoot 357 or .54 (blackpowder target pistol) at 25 meters into a 7 to 8 on the sheet (that ist about 8 inches diameter, enough for a solid kill). I do this standing, with two hands. I guess there are better shots than me in this forum.
I will not discuss 12 inches ranges for pistols. That is ridiculous. They deserve the same range as the SMG. They are, in fact, the same weapon, with a lower ROF and missing a stock.

But I would like to give SMGs 2D6 damage dice. Pistols can have 1D6. And do not give the SMGs an extra suppression rule, to keep things fast. SMGs should be deadly at short range. Leave the extra suppression rule as a trait for troops.

An extra CC D6 against other infantry models ist a good rule.

I like the 4 inch range. That is playable and with the FZ more than enough range. Let the FZ still be 6 inches, this way you are more likely to hit other friendly squads and the game is simple.

So our SMGs could be:
SMG, range 4'', 2D6 damage dice, no extreme range, no setup, suppression on 2+, special rule: Add 1D6 against other infantry models in CC.

Our bolt action could be:
Bold action rifle, range 20'', 1D6 damage die, extreme range, no setup, suppression on 3+.

Do we agree on this as a beginnig so far?

We need a theatre and a year. I would take Unternehmen Barbarossa (one of the biggest military actions in history), mean eastern front summer 41. Then we can evolve to 42 and 43 (with Stanlingrad and the the decision of the war, Kursk), or take a look a 39 and 40 and Africa 41.
We can lock on infantry combat and include a bit tank warfare. The war of 41 means that tanks are not so heavy as later in the war.

 

[127th Angry Angels]

Thing is guys if you already have a collection of WW2 mini's you have huge choice of rules already. Most of the manafacturs have some basic rules and there are loads of sets of skirmish rules. Everyone (who does ww2) has a fav WW2 set, mine is Rules Of Engagement by great escape games. I know other people who swear by NUTS, Rapid Fire, Ultra Simple Skirmish Rules, Blitzkreig Commander and so on. I'm not sure there is room for another WW2 skirmish level rule set when there are so many other great ones out there. It won't find the same niché as it does in modern other WW2 games have suppression and reaction mechanics. ROE and USSR are easy to play. It's alot of effort to put this together, look at the other games and see if it's worth it.

 

[The Old Soldier]

Except for the calm down comment, I basically with you. I'm very calm, just pointing out the absurdity of some reasoning.

I still would refer to having the SMG a 1D6 weapon, with the ablity to have SMG hits to remove the casualites BEFORE suppression. Otherwise large units with SMGs will in my opinion generate too many dice. After all the SMG uses a magazine, and is not chainfed.

20" is too short. 24" is a little better I could even go for 30". We are talking about rifles like the Mauser right? Those things are extremely accurate at long ranges.

Year 41? The year before America enters?? That is fine by me, but if I had my choice I would start from the beginning. The early days of Blitzkrieg. That way, you can build on it.

 

[Richgo22]

For the game: The BFG rules are too good to waste. And a WWII Evo game would be real great. If you play BFE often enough (and other games to compare it) you can see why we want a WWII Evo game. BFe is one of the best rulessets I ever played!

For the rifle: With extreme range and FZ we are talking about a range of 46 (2x20 +6) or 54 (2x24 +6) or 66 (2x30 +6) inches. The frist both suit we well and should be good enough for a rifle. So I vote for 24 inches.

41 is the biggest commitment in the war, and Russians versus Germans sounds well for me. But I also would start at 39, if folks back it up. Then we have to deal with the Polish and Germans.

To start with 41 gives a game of Germans versus Russians a very long run. And all the others can jump onto the train in the years to follow.
I would take a look at Poland and France later on. As I would do with Africa 41.

What do the others say to SMG damage dice: Should it be 2D6 or 1D6?
What do the other thinks of SMG style supprssion?

 

[The Old Soldier]

I can live with the smg 2xD6 thing without suppression changes. But, I warn that it may become too powerful if used in mass. 4 to 6" maximum.

I wouldn't use the advance extended range rules from BFE in a WW2 game. It doesn't reflext the era.

 

[biddie]

Again early war is the way to start.. you get Poland, France, the Netherlands, Finland, Yougoslavia, Greece, Crete, Egypt, Algiers, Libya, Denmark and that is just for the Germans. The Russians can fight Poland, Finland and even Japan. The Japanese can fight Korea, China, Russia. Hell and the are a lot of civil wars you do including the Spanish. The problems in Africa for the Italians. There are plenty of of options in early war that gets drowned out by the big boys of the war.

 

[biddie]

If you have problems firing across the street and do not wish to redo your terrain increase the range of all weapons.

Give the SMG 16" along with pistols
Assault Rifles and Carbines 32"
Rifles 60"
MG's 60" unless on tripods then LOS
larger caliber weapons LOS

this will then look right to the scale of the figure.

 

[Anpu42]

If you have a problem with what I posted then do me a favor, pick what I posted apart one piece at a time. Prove me wrong, please the logic in my mind tells me one thing, but a lot of you see it different. Let’s make this a discussion.

 

[duskdealer]

couple of things.

1/ EVERYONE CALM DOWN we have started bickering about little rules issues. Disagreements with rules is how we make the best rules. TOS has a different take on SMGs to me, but the final idea he put fowards with removing caualties before suppresion works, so use it and move on to the next problem.

2/ as a note a british main road used to be measured as 'ten armoured cavalry riding abreast in width'