WWII Evo?

[The Old Soldier]

It is not about the ready actions, it is about the fact you have to belt feed these bad boys to get a high rate of fire from them. It can't be done unless first it is set up, and second if there is not a assistant gunner to feed the ammo for the gunner.

 

[Richgo22]

That is true, Old Soldier. Without belts and spare barrels you will not be able to fire 1200 rounds (about 5 long belts, I think a ammo box held 4) per minute (MG 42). I think firing in wartime contitions will give a real rate of fire about 500 rounds per minute, what is nasty enough. Therefore the MG 34 with 900 rounds per minute is efficient enough. After that minute you will have to exchange the red hot spent first barrel, what could be done surprisingly fast with the MG 42.

It has a reason that may MGs of modern armies are based on the MG 42 (MG3, M60).

To DM: Try firing a Bren under enemy fire. You can fire everything for fun on a range.
You have this nice big hopper magazine, giving your position away while you lie prone, you have to raise your hands high to reload, what is a task for itself while prone, or you have to turn the gun around to the side, what is very good for sustained fire. All that for 30 rounds. And your field of vision is particulary blocked by the mag. . . why do you think no infantry weapons today is top loaded.

One ready action should be enough. Better go for a second or third gunner, to stay consistent with the set-up rules.

 

[DM]

To DM: Try firing a Bren under enemy fire. You can fire everything for fun on a range.

True, but then again some of my rellies managed this OK under fire during WW2 and just after, and some of my youner friends managed just fine with the post war 7.62mm LMG which used the same basic design.

Having said that, of course I preferred the GPMG and some nice long belts of 7.62, even if it was a pig to carry

 

[Richgo22]

All true, DM. I only quoted what I read. And I share your opinion, that belts are clumsy and heavy.
Therefore the 7,62 in the Bundeswehr always has a Mun-Keuler (Ammo carrier). MG-teams in WW2 would have three guys.

That is why is ask for the Bren and BAR to have two damage dice, and one bonus damage die when set up. These guns are much more flexible, they can be operated by one man. That is a big advantage in a fast playing game like BF:E WW2 would be.

Our modern light MGs come back to the flexibility of the Bren and BAR, but have a part of the sustained rate of fire the MG 34 and MG 42. They do very well in BF:E as they are.
When you adapt to this view, you differ these three groups of guns (Bren-BAR, MG 34-MG 42, modern light MGs). That would make the game all the better, because you can create a part of the historic feeling The Old Soldier has tought of. But let the game be fast paced!

That is also the reason why I would give bolt-action rifles a D6, 24 inches and could two damage dice as one for suppression. Bring the feeling with the rules, and hone it with nice special rules like those The Old Soldier suggested.
Maybe go for the fast semi-actions guns like Garand and the Russian semi-action with a differnt view: Give those a count of one damage die as one for supression.

The best for squad MGs in my eyes would be:
MG 34, 1xD6, 30 inches. -1 to armour (think of light vehicles). Plus 3 damage dice when set up with an ready action. Every damage die counts as two for supression. The gun needs 2 soldiers to operated. A third one will give one bouns damage die (to a total of 4) when set up.

MG 42, all the same, only 2xD6 as base damage. The MG 42 is lighter and more simple to operated.

Bren-BAR, 2x6, 30 inches, -1 to armour. Plus 1 damage die when set up with an ready action. Every damage die counts as two for supression.

With this set you would have a got basic to go for the other MGs. But I think these three groups will be the most interesting for infantry squads.

The real killers, the heavy MGs of cal. 50 and all the MGs on tripods with a lot of ammo at hand would need a view of their own.

 

[The Old Soldier]

Just a thought Richgo instead of making the bolt actions different, instead make the semi automatic rifles the ones that are different. Any FZ created with a squad armed with semi-automatic rifles will check for suppression AFTER any enemy models are removed.

Normally in BFE, it takes place BEFORE. That way to show the suppression power of the semi-automatic over the older rifles, using the AFTER will cause suppression to happen more frequently without having to make adjustments. Bolt action Rifles were extremely accurate weapons.

SMGs are a different thing alltogether. Only decent a close ranges, they were a bitch when it came to accuracy. A D4+1 handle them well, or if you want to stick to a D6, then make it a D6-1. They should simple count as two DD for suppression. Simple and effective.

The above two should handle just about any rifle style weapon in the game.

 

[Richgo22]

Very good thinking. I read your note on counting for suppression after losses, and I liked it.
It would use that one as a special rule for elite troops, as the other very good ideas you had to make training a difference in combat. I always like to keep rules as simple as possible, and alway be symetirc. That is why I would use no D4 or D8. Stay with BF:E as long as possible.

In BF:E we have the civilians MEA, which have a special rule to represent their low training (excluding the 1D6 in CC). Your rule for high training add flavour to the game.

For the accuracy of bolt action: Use the Exterme Range rule. Do not reroll, but use D6-1. That will make the high punch and deadly accuracy of bolt action rifles count. And it will differ them highly from MGs.

The SMG rules are good. What was your range? 8 or 10 inches? Actually a SMG is a small MG. Therefore counting one damage die for two for suppression is justified. For SMG damage, 2xD6-1 is good, and a 2xD6 for the Thompson. The range will make the difference, and the high supression rate, which is both very fine in game terms.
Sten, PPhSh41, M3A1 and MP40 can all use 2xD6-1. No Extreme Range for SMGs. You can make the Sten use the Natural 1 Rule for a 1 and 2, to show its crudeness.
Pistols use the same stats, 8 to 10 inches and 1D6 or 1D6-1, as the calibers go.

With this set we would have sqaud MGs, bolt action rilfes, SMGs and pistols. Hand grenades are included in the rules. So we only need some mortars and some specialist weapons, like mines against tanks, multiple hand grenades against tank tracks (geballte Ladung), shaped charges against tanks and panzerfaust, bazooka and PIAT rules.

Then we can play WWII BF:E. . . very good idea of you guys. . . One of the most important impacts on the game would be The Old Soldiers special rules for training, and assigning them to theaters and timlines.

 

[The Old Soldier]

For SMG Range of 10" sound more than generous to me. I would warn against giving the SMG 2xD6, that would make suppression too easy. 1xD6-1 is enough if you make it could for two for suppression and check After removal of enemy models. Otherwise you would have to adjust it by not counting 2 for suppression if you decided to keep the 2D6.

The BAR rate of fire, would also be low, when not set up. As would just about all other light MGs. It was too heavy to fire effectively on the move. So 1xD6 is plenty with checking After removals, once it sets up 2xD6 would be accurate, and with assistant, counting 2 for Suppression is fine.

But that is just my opinion.

 

[Richgo22]

Sounds good to me. I also thought of 6 inches for SMGs. But as stated before, I would give the suppression after losses to troops as special abiltity through training. If you split the supression rules in basic rules, you destroy a part of the inner symmetry of the game.

I like the idea that a SMG is in fact a mini MG, as the name states it. I would let them have 2xD6-1 (Thomposn 2D6). SMGs fire very fast. That way we have a neat difference to bolt action range and accuarcy.

I gave the MG 34 1xD6 while not set up. That way it would be seperate from the Bren and BAR with 2xD6. Maybe set up MG 34 and 42 need one more dice when set up.

That should be trying in playtesting. . .

 

[Mac V]

I've been in and out. Is there any word on if Mongoose is still considering WWII Evo as an actual game?

 

[The Old Soldier]

I've been in and out. Is there any word on if Mongoose is still considering WWII Evo as an actual game?

NO

 

[Yautja]

I hope they wait untill BFE and SST gets sorted out first. It would be odd to throw in an additional line when theres still problems with the first two.

 

[Anpu42]

If they come out with WWII Rules I would love to get in on the play testing. I have tons of WWII Minis from 1/285 to 1/35

 

[emperorpenguin]

I've been in and out. Is there any word on if Mongoose is still considering WWII Evo as an actual game?

NO

yes.....

 

[The Old Soldier]

err, show me in print where? They say they will consider it, but NEVER said they would. BIG difference. Anyone can say they will consider something.

 

[emperorpenguin]

err, show me in print where? They say they will consider it, but NEVER said they would. BIG difference. Anyone can say they will consider something.

nowhere in print but I know who is playtesting it

so it is being considered, whether it will ever the see the light of day is another matter

 

[The Old Soldier]

Well it would be a very hard sell after this SNAFU.

FLGS, Distributors and Online sites, have no faith after being burned with both SST and now BFE. I'd rather see the game sold to a 3rd party with the balls to get it done right.

 

[Witchsmeller]

I'd rather see it made like Victory at Sea. Just give me the rules and let me find my own minis. There are plenty of 28mm WW2 minis out there.

 

[Ravelli]

err, show me in print where? They say they will consider it, but NEVER said they would. BIG difference. Anyone can say they will consider something.

If you'd been paying attention you'd have read two references in S&P intimating the game is more than simply being considered but actively worked on. Ian Barstow referred to researching scale aspects of T-34s in an editorial, while Matt Sprange flat out stated that WWII Evo was being worked on in an article.

Matt also went on to say, however, that like all games they have in such early stages of development there is no guarantee that it will come to fruition. Just as emperorpenguin said above.

I'd rather see the game sold to a 3rd party with the balls to get it done right.

And I'd rather see it done by MGP; who after having learned from the difficulties in their first couple of forays into the pre-painted market, deliver a cracking game and minis line that's able to capitalise on the enormous interest that such a game would certainly generate.

 

[duskdealer]

you talk about differences in semi automatic rifles and bolt action as if it is a big thing.

Most reports from combat zones indicate that if you give soldiers rapid firing rifles they tend to waste ammo whilst paniked by enemy fire.

e.g. the US M16 was modified to fit a 3 round burst setting after the US soldiers wasted so much ammo in Vietnam.

ALL rifles should use the same profile as there was little EFFECTIVE difference between them.

 

[The Old Soldier]

There was a difference because it was something very different. I have no problem with the rifles being the same D6, but the mauser did have a more accurate and longer range than the M1. That was a fact showed time and again during the war between US and German squads. The germans did state that the high rate of firepower was a factor when they faced off against US squad once those squads got within range.

Those are facts, and the can be reflected in the game. Like I said, by making units firing with semi auto rifles, allow the unit to suppress After models are removed will cover it well without a lot of rules. Just lower the range over the bolt action mauser.

Don't use Vietnam as a example. It is a poor one. Since the enemy was mainly unseen in a brush war situation. There are too many differences of tactics and styles of fighting between Europe in WW2, and warfare in South East Asia in Vietnam.

Last thing I want to see is a candy coated, carbon copy of BFE, with WW2 toy soldiers. IF that is what you want. I pass.