Would a far/free trader ever use missiles?

The Mongoose 1e sourcebook "Sector Fleet" is the predecessor of The Imperial Navy sourcebook. Rather than the Solomani Rim, it details the fleet of the Spinward Marches.

In the Aramis Subsector:
The Spinward Marches Fleet maintains three patrol groups totalling 20 light (ie not fleet combat worthy) escort vessels.
The 214th Imperial Fleet (the Aramis Subsector Fleet) has two flotillas totally 19 more light escort/patrol vessels.
The Aramis Colonial Fleet Assets that aren't SDBs or Monitors (ie can be used for multiple system patrols) include 34 more such ships.

So you have 73 1000dton or less jump capable patrol craft available, aside from whatever SDBs and Monitors any given system has (though most probably don't have many, since the worlds here are mostly pretty poor). That is to cover 26 worlds. That does not include the ships assigned to the fighting formations stationed at Natoko, Aramis,and L'oeul d'Dieu, which are all light cruisers, destroyers, and escorts.

A Zhodani border subsector like Jewell has more heavy ships in its colonial fleet, because those planets are more concerned about heavy warships than light raiders/piratees. The overall patrol numbers are not that much lower.
Thank you, that seems to accord (at least in magnitude) with the example in the current IN Handbook. 3-4 ships per system.

Do we assume they spend a significant time in a system and occasionally rotate out for major refit, or do they regularly rotate round the systems. I would presume the former since it wastes less time with them in jump space where they cannot fulfil their primary role and allows the commander to become familiar with the nuances of the particular system (and establish a rapport with the government). I would also imagine that after a few year long cruises the captains might also rotate out to spread the local knowledge and possibly so they can be promoted.

3-4 sounds a far more credible presence and allows plenty of scope for players (and pirates) not regularly encountering them. It makes them being available (or not) easily explicable and it enables planetary governments to enlist local mercs (the players) when the IN are too busy or far away. It also allows the cavalry to turn up if you need the players to survive their own incompetence. With so few naval commanders you stand a chance of developing their motivations and character in more detail so that you can start to predict what they will do in a given situation (even if you use a broad brush approach like "kirk-like". Too many captains and it becomes difficult to make them unique.
 
Do we assume
There's not actually any micro level details, so there is no consensus on how that operates. It is going to depend on a ton of other assumptions you make about how other micro level things work.

About half of those are "colonial" vessels so they are probably in their home systems, though Aramis is a pretty poor subsector so many of those worlds that have "colonial" ships don't have the ability to maintain them locally and they have to rotate out for refits. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Obviously, since three of the four naval base worlds have existing fleet presence they are less likely to draw on the patrol ships (Paya only has a patrol flotilla, no fighting squadrons). Their own escort craft can do the station keeping duties. High volume worlds would likely have more ships than lower volume worlds. Again, my opinion.

As for how they behave... you have to decide a dozen other factors first. How developed are the systems outside the main world? How much traffic is there in the outer systems? Do ships appear willy nilly all over the place or do you think they actually take steps to provide some safety from the threat of Vargr corsairs from across the border by maintaining some kind of protected space? There's no "facts" about any of this in print, so do whatever you want.
 
I highly recommend the 1e Borderland Profile books for ideas on fleshing out non-mainworlds,
I tend to think non-mainworld populations would be quite high. You're talking a lot of 'free' real estate. A lot of MWs in Charted Space are not really habitable without aid, so stellar geography (ease to get to) often becomes the deciding factor on designation. The MW isn't even always the highest population planet.
As to the rest of the argument, I get around it with a simple little tweak... I got rid of the Imperium :devilish:
 
We can detect its signals out to the edge of the solar system.
Yep. The Voyager transmitter is apparently 22 Watts microwave. Even with it's high gain directional antenna by the time it reaches us it has dropped to less than an attowatt. High gain directional antennas receive the signals. It helps that both the transmitter and receiver are controlled by the same agency and perfect alignment is possible, nevertheless this is a remarkable achievement. Even more so to me is that they can reprogramme a system that is 24 billion kilometres from earth.

Transponders however transmit equally in all directions and so the wattage in any particular direction is lower. In addition some part of the ship carrying it would mask its transmissions so it will need multiple antennas that will cause interference etc. etc.

If the receiver needs to pick up transmissions from every direction as well it cannot use a directional antenna either. You could use a directional antenna once you knew were something was but you will need multiple antennas around your ship to avoid ownship masking. The main problem of course is that a directional antenna needs to be pointed at the source and cannot track multiple sources simultaneously Though you can get round this by having the system scan an area, but timings may mean the transponder is not transmitting at exactly the time you are pointing at it (or rather at the time the signals actually get to the receiver).

Sadly I don't have examples of transponders in spaaaaace. :)

I don't know why 50,000 km was chosen but it's there in black and white.

EDIT:
This repeats things others have said as I started posting in response to the quoted post, others were quicker on the draw than me but I posted this before seeing their posts.
 
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The ability to "hear" long distance transmissions like Voyager is going to depend on the 'ears' of the listener. A merchant ship with basic computer and just a virtual aperture antenna built into their non optimally designed hull is going to have a much worse chance of detecting such a signal than military ship or something with a larger array. The starport probably has a distributed network array or a massive receiver dish if you like old school.

As for why all the detection ranges are pitiful, it is because the designers were primarily concerned with space combat and wanted to keep it close. 2300 and T5, which are Traveller rules with less restrictive combat ranges, don't have that narrow limitation.

Of course, you need more detail in your ship design to properly account for differences in the antenna arrays (virtual or otherwise) and other factors.
 
I highly recommend the 1e Borderland Profile books for ideas on fleshing out non-mainworlds,
I tend to think non-mainworld populations would be quite high. You're talking a lot of 'free' real estate. A lot of MWs in Charted Space are not really habitable without aid, so stellar geography (ease to get to) often becomes the deciding factor on designation. The MW isn't even always the highest population planet.
As to the rest of the argument, I get around it with a simple little tweak... I got rid of the Imperium :devilish:
The 2e updated version is supposed to be coming out soon.
 
I heard that a darkness acclimatised human eye can detect a single photon.

Not saying that should replace a ships visual sensor though :)
 
As for how they behave... you have to decide a dozen other factors first. How developed are the systems outside the main world? How much traffic is there in the outer systems? Do ships appear willy nilly all over the place or do you think they actually take steps to provide some safety from the threat of Vargr corsairs from across the border by maintaining some kind of protected space? There's no "facts" about any of this in print, so do whatever you want.
3 Ships is easy as there are 3 major roles. One ship is in Imperial Space patrolling, One ship is in the 100-10D zone assisting the colonials in their policing and the last ship is portside conducting diplomatic duties, shore leave, maintenance etc. and standing by in case of an incident. Imperial Space based incidents will result in the colonial liaison heading out to assist and the diplomatic one taking over colonial duties, if it is in the 100-10D zone the diplomatic one will assist the colonial liaison. Let's say roles rotate every month to keep everyone sharp (and align with the traditional monthly reset in trade).

Any additional ships will be added to the Imperial Space patrol.

Their major role of the ship in Imperial Space will be tagging emergence and jump events to track what jump signatures are in system. These will be tagged with the tonnage of the ship as a start in identification and checks made against any scheduled vessel (since ships file an onward flight plan it is possible the x-boat network will get you this weeks expected arrivals so you can check them off). Where possible these will be correlated with thermal images to produce a database of signatures with track numbers which should already allow a degree of verification of repeat visitors such as scheduled vessels. Whilst a ships thermal signature can change over time it tends to change slowly (or have predictable spike events - thrusters firing for example). At least it will allow you to see that the hot blob that was at the emergence point x is now at bearing b and a likely range since you know it's probable tonnage. The wide variety of jump points assists in this as the closer things are to others the harder corelation of emission information is. You could also probably begin to tell if it is behaving normally and observing over time will tend to confirm its range and thrust capability further categorising it. Better operators and closer tracks might even be able to make a tentative identification of ship type (if it is not a custom vessel that has never been categorised before).

Once that track reaches the 100D point it's transponder can be verified and a dispersion of Colonial ships (and ships boats) should allow it to be monitored on its journey to the planet (and note any deviation from that). This data will be added to the track plot by the IN Liaison and the picture refined. At this point ships that have visited before will already be fully populated, but new visitors may receive a close pass by the colonial navy to visually confirm the transponder data is at least consistent. Ships that are within range will be pinged. If it has no transponder (or the transponder report looks suspect) it will be checked out visually and probably boarded.

When the ship gets to the 10D limit the ground stations will fully interrogate the transponder and there will be additional tracking to collate sample data of emissions and unusual characteristics that will help identify the vessel in other ways (thrust used, manoeuvrability, transmissions will be stored for future analysis etc.).

Ships not already fully categorised will have additional physical checks conducted at the port and any missing registration details filled out.

Any ship behaving in an unusual manner (i.e. not heading directly to the main port, or other legitimate destination) will trigger additional interest, and be prioritised for scanning, if it happens to be close it might also get a fly-by. Where such behaviour begins to move it into closer proximity to another vessel it will become a ship of interest and the sensor operator will ensure a regular update of it's positional information even if this requires de-prioritising routine traffic and the docked ship brought to readiness.

Weapon discharges are more detectable still and will prompt a hostile flag on the vessel. Similarly a May-Day. This will result in the scrambling of the docked ship (and redeployment of the 100-10D ship as necessary). Once the docked ship gets on-station it will take over the duties previously being conducted. The nearest appropriate ship will plot an intercept (be it Colonial or IN). In the event of a non-combat May-Day from an isolated vessel specialist SAR vessels may be deployed to investigate and assist instead.

In the event of a 100-10D event additional fast short range fighters may be deployed.

The expectation is not necessarily that you can prevent a pirate attack, but that having identified one as being in progress you can try to intercept and defeat (even after the fact) or that you can at least categorise the ship involved. Having the sensor operator focus in on the suspect ship means better data being available (they can make more sensor rolls).

Offenders characteristics will be circulated round the sector and the signature put on a watch list. Vessels with a similar signature be subject to closer scrutiny (or harassment depending on your viewpoint). It will definitely be pinged in the 100-10D zone, it will definitely have a fly-by to gather as much information as possible and if it matches a known pirate it will be stopped and boarded and if it resists it will be disabled or destroyed. On landing the captain can expect detailed customs assessment, log analysis and his transponder examined for modification.

Any sensor data will be transmitted as it is received via narrow beam transmitter to the ground stations (thank you Voyager) and relayed to the docked IN vessel for collation. These are periodically uploaded to the x-boats for dissemination round the sector and via encrypted broadcast to the authority vessels to maintain a holistic picture. This data will also be added to the sector fleet database which will form the basis of the individual ships databases.

Computers will also dynamically correlate the combined situational awareness picture to identify anomalies such as a ship leaving port with transponder details that are different to when it was scanned on arrival (or does not match any that arrived at all) for flagging up to sophont analysts for prioritisation and further investigation.

The emergence of a large unexpected ship or a number of large ships arriving in close proximity is probably cause for alarm and might result in the ship in imperial space jumping back to fleet to report it. The remaining vessels will scramble and collate information jumping as any threat develops. An invasion by large capital ships overrides any other duty.
 
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That's a workable schema for a certain set of assumptions. If those are the assumptions you prefer to use for your campaign, excellent. Now you've taken Charted Space's very high level fluffy descriptions and converted into something that fits how your particular Charted Space works. Other GMs will have to develop other, equally valid, ways of it working because they don't make the same set of assumptions. That is the joy and the pain of using Charted Space.
 
Supposedly, the Scout Service is there to slip between the cracks and fill in those informational holes; so they'll soak up up all that astronomical data, and any thing unusual, unexpected gravitational waves from what's supposed to be empty space.

Jumping is what it is; I suppose a more accurate picture might be that of a jump rope, stretched between entry and exit, though string telephone might actually be more precise.
 
Okay so we’ve long ago left the reason for this thread. Arguing about empty hex’s and jump drive really doesn’t hav3 anything to do with the threads question. “Would a Free/Fartrader ever use Missiles”. Answer: Not likely they are purely a offensive weapon with little to any benefits over Lasers and Sandcasters (Which both have a lower cost and are more practical)
 
The ability to "hear" long distance transmissions like Voyager is going to depend on the 'ears' of the listener. A merchant ship with basic computer and just a virtual aperture antenna built into their non optimally designed hull is going to have a much worse chance of detecting such a signal than military ship or something with a larger array. The starport probably has a distributed network array or a massive receiver dish if you like old school.

As for why all the detection ranges are pitiful, it is because the designers were primarily concerned with space combat and wanted to keep it close. 2300 and T5, which are Traveller rules with less restrictive combat ranges, don't have that narrow limitation.

Of course, you need more detail in your ship design to properly account for differences in the antenna arrays (virtual or otherwise) and other factors.
It suddenly occurs to me that we could of course treat the sensor ranges exactly like the weapon ranges. If you allow them to be doubled and quadrupled at -2 and -4 respectively for sensor rolls (and allow +1 for 1/4 range) then you allow a bit more scope for them. It also means those devices that give bonuses to sensor rolls now also help extend the range rather than just make it all easier and some of it wasn't that hard to begin with).

This would allow minimal Visual and EM scans (and transponder detection) within 200,000 km and limited thermal and active RADAR/LIDAR scans out to 1.2 mllion km. Even a few vessels (or even a ground station) could cover the inspection requirement and then the majority of ships can be freed up for physical checks and interception.

If you wanted to have a more omniscient IN (or just make the pirates job harder) all you need are more capable sensor operators rather than having to add better equipment or have more ships.

(Or am I the only one who overlooked this)

And given the amount of "ships boats" that the IN hands out to crew mustering out (around 60% of those serving 5 terms can expect to be offered a small craft) oodles of them must be reaching their end of service life at about the same time as crews are mustering out. The won't appear on their org charts as they are beneath consideration for war work.

However perhaps this is what they use to fill out their patrol commitments. A capital ship passing through a benighted system could drop off a boat with small crew (maybe on punishment detail or a training mission) to spend a month tracking vessels going in or out of a system and liaising with the colony (if there is one). A Destroyer Escort could carry three instead of the usual two cutters, but there may be a special boat carrier class that we don't usually see as it is so specialised. Larger contingents of ships boats might be the most numerous IN presence in even a well developed system. I doubt there would be hundreds per system, but there could easily be half a dozen in more important systems (maybe one per level of Starport?).

There is no need for them to need to actually be Ships Boats (though that is the traditional benefit), a Pinnace is within budget (sadly the obvious candidate cutter is over budget, but maybe one with a few dings could be considered). A Ships Boat is perfectly capable but few Navy ship designs seem to carry them (as other small craft are more suitable for attachment to a capital vessel). They have to be doing something beyond servicing Naval bases. When they are sold off they are demilitarised, but active duty vessels would carry some armament on principle and have military sensors.
 
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Okay so we’ve long ago left the reason for this thread. Arguing about empty hex’s and jump drive really doesn’t hav3 anything to do with the threads question. “Would a Free/Fartrader ever use Missiles”. Answer: Not likely they are purely a offensive weapon with little to any benefits over Lasers and Sandcasters (Which both have a lower cost and are more practical)
Well sort of.

If you want to deliver a lot of damage a triple missile turret is oodles better than a triple laser turret as the extra lasers add some points of damage but the extra missiles add their full damage.

If you fire at Medium or closer range you prevent EW from knocking them out of the sky. At long range they get one chance.

If you are further away:
If the ship you are attacking doesn't have a full time sensor operator then they may not detect the launch and may not use EW.
If the target ship has lousy sensors their chance of detecting launch dops and any EW will be less successful.
If their sensor operator is not skilled their EW is likely to be minimally effective.

If the ship hasn't got any lasers then it cannot use point defence to defend.

If the ship is lower tech level than the missile or the launch vessel you can get significant bonus to hit as the missiles are smart.

If the above is true then missiles are a good way of delivering a devastating volley and would scare the pants off the target.

So our use case is targeting an unarmed ship that has lousy sensors or skimps on crew and low TL. Sounds like a trader.
So who needs to hit traders hit hard and fast and utterly demoralise them in a few volleys, preferably one. Hmmm sounds a bit piratey to me.

So whether pirates exist (or more importantly can players have any chance of conducting piracy successfully) does need the "is the IN omniscient" question answered (admittedly empty hexes a more tangential).
 
Decoy missile.

A missile that matches the sensor signature of the firing ship, until a detailed sensor scan is made either blip could be the ship.

A triple turret with three of these would give a pirate ship a bit of trouble since there are now four targets and they have to scan each one - how many sensor stations does the corsair have?
 
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