Would a far/free trader ever use missiles?

I didn't see anything causing a blanket limitation on sensor ranges. Particular ones (like densitometer) have stated ranges, but as the example missiles have homing brains and Thermal Sensors and have cruise ranges equivalent to ship missiles I presumed they were as sensitive as they needed to be (since there is no points having a missile with 100's KM range if it can only see 100 yards :) In the case of a thermal sensor in a missile that is just using it to home in then all you need is a sufficient temperature difference between background and the object.

Unless I am also missing something.
I asked Gier and it's not really spelled out. So, lacking rules, we'd just have to assume it somehow works. I'll just use a recon sensor and handwave that it just works.
 
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Except recon sensors don't have the range. Sigh. Maybe it just works by magic.
I sort of see them as a sensor that does a high-tech equivalent of a blink comparator: compare two images and notice that thing moved... now add a little low tech AI "what does that thing that moved best match up to?" followed by "I should probably let someone know..."
 
I sort of see them as a sensor that does a high-tech equivalent of a blink comparator: compare two images and notice that thing moved... now add a little low tech AI "what does that thing that moved best match up to?" followed by "I should probably let someone know..."
Well, that works for that, but I was trying to make a probe that could be sent to get detailed information to identify the ship well enough to make the owner's lives hell if they got away. It would need to be better than the above, but likely less so than ship's sensors. It's niche, but a probe needs to be able to get that kind of information.
 
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You could just add the cost of the appropriate ships sensors to a robot.

Basic Sensors take up no tonnage and are free. Whilst the sensor bay might be large the actual sensors might be quite small as a ship needs them on every facing with maybe gimbles etc.. A probe might only have them on the front fixed forwards (in the same way fixed weapons take no power or tonnage compared to turrets, it is the gear that moves stuff and leaving space to allow it to move that is the bulky bit).

If it is taking a scan to chirp the raw data to the feds then it doesn't need to actually process the collect itself (other than to refine targeting and verify a good collect. Processing the data to generate intel product is the difficult bit (which is what will make up a lot of the equipment so tonnage, price tag and probably most of the DM). Your probe can offshore that processing to the feds massive planetary computer.

The net effect is the equipment can collect the same data at the same resolution, it costs the same but it is more compact.
 
You could just add the cost of the appropriate ships sensors to a robot.

Basic Sensors take up no tonnage and are free. Whilst the sensor bay might be large the actual sensors might be quite small as a ship needs them on every facing with maybe gimbles etc.. A probe might only have them on the front fixed forwards (in the same way fixed weapons take no power or tonnage compared to turrets, it is the gear that moves stuff and leaving space to allow it to move that is the bulky bit).

If it is taking a scan to chirp the raw data to the feds then it doesn't need to actually process the collect itself (other than to refine targeting and verify a good collect. Processing the data to generate intel product is the difficult bit (which is what will make up a lot of the equipment so tonnage, price tag and probably most of the DM). Your probe can offshore that processing to the feds massive planetary computer.

The net effect is the equipment can collect the same data at the same resolution, it costs the same but it is more compact.
Even though basic sensors are no tonnage, I'll still wager basic ship sensors are too large for a missile body. No space on a ship doesn't mean no space on something smaller. Maybe @Geir could opine. If I could fit them in, that would be fine for the most basic functionality, though the military would likely need something better and that isn't possible under the current rules.
 
If you want to deliver a lot of damage a triple missile turret is oodles better than a triple laser turret as the extra lasers add some points of damage but the extra missiles add their full damage.
Chaff still works and you can still attempt to intercept
If you are further away:
If the ship you are attacking doesn't have a full time sensor operator then they may not detect the launch and may not use EW.
If the target ship has lousy sensors their chance of detecting launch dops and any EW will be less successful.
If their sensor operator is not skilled their EW is likely to be minimally effective.
Now your attacking and your no longer a merchant but a pirate which is another thing entirely
So our use case is targeting an unarmed ship that has lousy sensors or skimps on crew and low TL. Sounds like a trader.
So who needs to hit traders hit hard and fast and utterly demoralise them in a few volleys, preferably one. Hmmm sounds a bit piratey to me.
and the question is rather a merchant would carry missiles and you just pointed out why they wouldn’t
If the ship hasn't got any lasers then it cannot use point defence to defend.
Which is another reason for the merchant ship to carry lasers
 
And again we leave the focus of the thread. The sensor missile is a pirate or patrol ships tool not a merchants. And what happens If the ship you just shoot a missile at has oh for example a dual Particle Beam turret (captain that ship just fired a missile at us, return fire, bye bye merchant) 🙄 A Mechantman that’s firing before they get fired on is going to be the target of any patrol ship in the area as well as getting tagged as a pirate if some survive with their transponder data. Which is another reason to have lasers and not missiles, the lasers can be used defensively as well as offensively, missiles even your sensor missile would always be perceived as an offensive weapon.
 
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And again we leave the focus of the thread. The sensor missile is a pirate or patrol ships tool not a merchants. And what happens If the ship you just shoot a missile at has oh for example a dual Particle Beam turret (captain that ship just fired a missile at us, return fire, bye bye merchant) 🙄
Yep, I wandered. Sorry!
 
In the end it still comes down to the following
1). Missiles are purely a offensive weapon
2). They are less economical than Lasers or Sandcasters
3). If a merchantman fires first he’s a pirate if he waits and is armed with missiles he has no defense
4). The authorities are going to be suspicious of a missile armed merchantman because of all the above.
5). The longer range of a missile is irrelevant since any encounter between a pirate and a merchantman will be long or closer, probably much closer since for the pirate the closer the better.
6). ECM can be used vs a missile at close range or longer which Sandcasters can support with chaff
7). As above pirates want to get in close before they attack which is why they use fake transponders, and missiles loose the smart trait it within close range.
 
According to the sensors range chart you are able to discern the basic outline at long range. At that range officially you can only detect that EM is going on, not what it is. Thermally you can detect the overall heat of the thing. Active RADAR and LIDAR will give you the basic outline (small and missiley not big and spaceshippy.

I didn't think Traveller had magic heat management, it is one of the few things it does need to shed into space... cold cold space. Where a warmish thingy will stick out like a sore thumb and a smallish warm thingy will have a hard job to make itself look big enough. Thermal imaging target identification is not the same as an IR seeking sensor.

For you to deploy your countermeasure you will have had to spot the attacker so you must already be in those ranges as currently all sensors have the same range and the super sensors are Densitometer and NAS which both require you to be much closer.

I am looking at those complex weapons you identified and despite their clever RADAR gizmos ain't one of them looking like an F117 or a Stratofortress to me with my visual sensors. You might fool an automated RADAR guided air defence system to fire on you as the nearest suitable target, but you won't fool an operator looking at an image from a RADAR directed telescope with electronic optical enhancement. And the RADAR will find you because you decided to say "hey look at me I'm a Stratofortress". They are also designed to be launched from stand-off ranges and behave like the relevant aircraft, not do something bizarre like suddenly split into four aircraft.

You might create useful targets to distract the pirates own volley of missiles (and that is a definitely a good thing) but you are not guaranteed to fool a sensor op (though you might make his job harder - so a negative DMs). If a ship trace suddenly breaks into four traces he knows something is up and will be looking for anomalies.

SEAD is a very specialised field with very specific aims and targets in mind much of it not suitable for public dissemination (but it is obviously the theoretically impressive volume of Soviet air defence systems and their skilled operators). Since Ukraine a lot of that design theory will likely change as the value of "many" has been devalued somewhat.
Active sensors can be spoofed into making the receiver see what they want to be seen. Radar requires a signal return from an object for any detection. That signal can be jammed so that they do not get an accurate read. An object can increase/decrease it's signature to make it so that the return signal is not accurate at all. That's the point of a decoy - to make the viewer see something that really isn't there.

Lidar can be easily jammed with a laser directed at the sensor. By sending back infared pulses along the same frequency as the emitter you will blind the Lidar, or at least give it junk data to interpret.

The trick to any decoy working is to be able to deploy it so that the enemy can't make sense of which is the real target and which is the decoy target. This gets far more complicated as the size of the ship gets larger - there has to be a corresponding size increase to the decoy in order to generate the necessary false target info. Plus your decoy has to be programmed to emit the same electromagnetic/thermal signature as well as having ample power to maintain that spoofing for a period of time. This means a tiny little missile may not have the ability to act as a decoy except at longer ranges where sensors are not able to burn through the spoofing. Electronic warfare is often about who has more power to burn through the other side. In the real world ground radar installations have far more power than airborne (or seaborne) ones, however they also are trying to cover a very large area whereas the aerial ones only have to cover where they are. And there is distance as well, as the closer you get the less effective your spoofing/jamming is.

F117 utilized a distinct aerostructure to minimize and scatter radar waves to achieve low radar observability (trivia note for those who played the Microprose F-19 stealth fighter game - nobody expected just how butt-ugly the F-117 was gonna be in real life as compared to the computer game aircraft model). It also had special radar-absorbing paint to help reduce it's radar signature. The BUFF, on the other hand, looks like a giant barn on radar due to it's size and lack of stealthy design (which wasn't an issue way back when it was first designed). Newer generations of stealth aircraft also utilize specialized coatings to minimize radar returns as well as reducing the radar return of their structure. IR detection is much harder to defeat since you can't really hide it, though some aircraft minimize their forward and side signatures by reducing how much of the exhaust area is visible.

Whether or not you will fool a sensor operator greatly depends on the skill of the two operators (you can have a defensive one as well) involved AND just how good the equipment is. Mainline Imperial military tech is supposed to be TL-15, and with an average of TL-12 across the Imperium, civilian sensors will have a very hard time against true military gear. One would expect colonial / secondary ships to be TL-14, with system defense and local forces being TL-13/12, erring on the side of TL-13 simply because it's pure military stuff and not civilian. Pirates would/should have mostly civilian gear to play with since they won't normally have access to the gear or spares to maintain it - unless they are privateers or someone that is state-supported.

SEAD is indeed a specialized arena, or rather it used to be more specialized back during the Cold War. Today you see militaries that have invested less and less in dedicated platforms for it. Look at the decrease in the overall numbers of wild weasel and other dedicated EW aircraft. Instead they are moving more and more to automated jamming pods rather than actual operators. The USN is wanting to cut their Growler fleet but so far Congress has not authorized it. The US Air Force has gotten rid of most of its aircraft as well and moved on to pods (EF-111 used to be their premier airborne platform). Russian EW in the Ukraine warfare seems to be mostly ground-based, as they have been hesitant to commit modern air platforms to the war (not to mention the Ukranians have shot down a few of their highly prized air assets, and not the ground attack trash either).

From a pure gaming perspective it really comes down to how complicated do you want to make things? At short range most decoy efforts should fail since the enemy is simply going to be too close for it to be able to be effectively deployed. By effective I mean it's able to be deployed undetected so that the enemy simply ignores the decoy. At medium to longer ranges it starts getting better chances of being effective, and at very long range the advantage should lie with the defender - all other things being equal. And if you are going to go down this path then you really have to start looking at just how decoys work and how much someone is going to invest into them for them to actually BE effective. That means a significant expenditure in electronics and power generation - and that gets out of the realm of civilian and into the pure military. And that's gonna be beyond the average free trader or pirate ship.
 
Now your attacking and your no longer a merchant but a pirate which is another thing entirely

and the question is rather a merchant would carry missiles and you just pointed out why they wouldn’t

Which is another reason for the merchant ship to carry lasers
Yes, in order to analyse a problem you need to look at it from both sides. I gave the use case for missile, if that doesn't match what you are going to be doing as a trader then missiles ain't for you.

Besides, Far Trader and Free Trader are classes of vessel. Trading is not the only use case for them (and players can receive missions to do other things). Traders can sometimes turn pirate if the temptation is large enough. A free trader is also much less obvious as a pirate platform than a Corsair class vessel (and not all Corsair class vessels are pirates either).
 
Yep, I wandered. Sorry!
You fold too easily :)

A sensor missile is perfectly legitimate for a merchant that has for example picked up a distress signal.

"So Captain Boggis your logs showed you picked up a distress beacon, but you didn't investigate to see if you could render assistance, why?".

"We fired off a sensor missile to the site identified in the "distress" signal and we identified a 400T armed vessel with no obvious signs of damage. Since the distress signal said it was from the free trader Beowulf we surmised that either assistance was already present or that it was a ruse by pirates and so instead of diverting to the site we sent the coordinates with our sensor image via tight beam to the INS Vengeful."

"Case Dismissed."
 
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EW is not limited to close range, it can however only protect another vessel that is at close range.
That paragraph is definitely badly worded
“Electronic Warfare: A Traveller performing sensor
operator duties on a spacecraft can use the Electronic
Warfare action to destroy or misdirect incoming
missiles before they impact their vessel or another ship
within Close range.”
They probably should have broken it down to two separate sentences.
 
Besides, Far Trader and Free Trader are classes of vessel. Trading is not the only use case for them (and players can receive missions to do other things). Traders can sometimes turn pirate if the temptation is large enough. A free trader is also much less obvious as a pirate platform than a Corsair class vessel (and not all Corsair class vessels are pirates either).
In The Anarchy, a history of the East India Company, it talks about their first trading mission (at about 1603) to buy spices from the East Indies (ie Indonesia etc) and bring them back to England. They were “chased off” by the Dutch East India Company, so to ensure that they still made a profit they pirated a Dutch trader and stole their cargo.
While companies compete with lawyers today, they used canons in the past.
Within Imperial space, things may be at the lawyer stage, but out on the fringes things can be more “exciting”.
 
Yes, in order to analyse a problem you need to look at it from both sides. I gave the use case for missile, if that doesn't match what you are going to be doing as a trader then missiles ain't for you.

Besides, Far Trader and Free Trader are classes of vessel. Trading is not the only use case for them (and players can receive missions to do other things). Traders can sometimes turn pirate if the temptation is large enough. A free trader is also much less obvious as a pirate platform than a Corsair class vessel (and not all Corsair class vessels are pirates either).
The thread is at the minimum implying that the ship is a merchantman so the replies should also be from that perspective any other perspective is misleading and counterproductive. Any ship can be a pirate but if we were talking about that possibility the thread would be titled something like should pirates us missiles.
So on another thread there is an interesting discussion about missiles and it got me wondering. Would Free/far traders, or similar ships that a player is likely to have, use missiles ever? At 250k per missile a single missile is the same as the monthly payment on the mortgage or almost 5 years of maintenance for a Far/Free trader.
With all the challenges for far/free traders to maintain profitability to begin with, launching multiple missiles would significantly impact the bottom line. Would it not be more cost effective to use energy weapons as a deterrence or just let pirates take the cargo? To truly be a threat to most ships via missiles alone you would be expending at least 1MCr (4 missiles) probably more, with no guarantee of success

If the ship owner is a government or independently wealthy I can see it but that is not the case for most Far/Free Trader owners, or even subsidized merchants for that matter.
The original post even talks about rather it would be better to just let the pirates take the cargo. It’s clear that the OP is talking about trade and not any imagined other purpose that a Free/Fartrader can be used for.
 
That paragraph is definitely badly worded
“Electronic Warfare: A Traveller performing sensor
operator duties on a spacecraft can use the Electronic
Warfare action to destroy or misdirect incoming
missiles before they impact their vessel or another ship
within Close range.”
They probably should have broken it down to two separate sentences.
Its all about the context. Missiles at medium range or closer arrive immediately, I don't think you can conduct EW on them at all. Later paragraphs talk about using EW over several rounds on a specific salvo that would make no sense if you could only conduct EW at close range.
 
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