Would a far/free trader ever use missiles?

[swordtart]

Decoy missile.

A missile that matches the sensor signature of the firing ship, until a detailed sensor scan is made either blip could be the ship.

A triple turret with three of these would give a pirate ship a bit of trouble since there are now four targets and they have to scan each one - how many sensor stations does the corsair have?

There is plenty of scope for special warheads just using the robot handbook.

In this case however you can see shape visually and categorise the thermal signature of the source long before you can interrogate the transponder, so I think it would be spotted. There are doubtless missile borne decoy measures possibly like firing a massive cloud of multi-frequency jamming chaff between you and the pirate but they would probably only offer temporary relief but it might force them to choose another attack vector to reacquire. You might even be able to deploy a huge reflective balloon that resembled a vessel and they might foil (ha ha ha ha) sensors

You could maybe have some missile style drones that conform to you and put out a thermal signature that created an overall picture that made you look like a larger ship.

It might be better to just keep it vague to avoid nit picking and just say decoy missiles using some clever space "magic" apply a negative DM to sensor rolls. I am sure there are some secret projects going on in the worlds militaries at the moment to solve exactly this sort of problem, just because it is not in the public domain doesn't exist an d therefore isn't actually magic.

 

[Condottiere]

That's more likely a drone.

 

[swordtart]

That's more likely a drone.

It could be but having it as a robot primitive brain would mean you wouldn't have to take time off conducting sensor ops just to move it when you wanted it for station keeping.

 

[Condottiere]

If you want the decoy to fool the opposition, it's got to act the way that the launcher, assuming that's the pattern to be followed, behaves.

In fact, you want it to be more plausible, and thereby attractive.

If it's a simple case of a missile magnet, that depends on how sophisticated the onboard computer, sensors and programming of the incoming salvo, is.

 

[Sigtrygg]

There is plenty of scope for special warheads just using the robot handbook.

In this case however you can see shape visually and categorise the thermal signature of the source long before you can interrogate the transponder, so I think it would be spotted. There are doubtless missile borne decoy measures possibly like firing a massive cloud of multi-frequency jamming chaff between you and the pirate but they would probably only offer temporary relief but it might force them to choose another attack vector to reacquire. You might even be able to deploy a huge reflective balloon that resembled a vessel and they might foil (ha ha ha ha) sensors

You could maybe have some missile style drones that conform to you and put out a thermal signature that created an overall picture that made you look like a larger ship.

It might be better to just keep it vague to avoid nit picking and just say decoy missiles using some clever space "magic" apply a negative DM to sensor rolls. I am sure there are some secret projects going on in the worlds militaries at the moment to solve exactly this sort of problem, just because it is not in the public domain doesn't exist an d therefore isn't actually magic.

How many ship combats get to visual range? Traveller has magic heat management, so your decoy missile matches the heat output of the firing ship. You also broadcast an EM return equivalent to an active sensor ping on the ship you are being a decoy for.

Check out the latest declassified aircraft decoys.

ADM-160 MALD - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Delilah (missile) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

SPEAR 3 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[swordtart]

How many ship combats get to visual range? Traveller has magic heat management, so your decoy missile matches the heat output of the firing ship. You also broadcast an EM return equivalent to an active sensor ping on the ship you are being a decoy for.

Check out the latest declassified aircraft decoys.

ADM-160 MALD - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Delilah (missile) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

SPEAR 3 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to the sensors range chart you are able to discern the basic outline at long range. At that range officially you can only detect that EM is going on, not what it is. Thermally you can detect the overall heat of the thing. Active RADAR and LIDAR will give you the basic outline (small and missiley not big and spaceshippy.

I didn't think Traveller had magic heat management, it is one of the few things it does need to shed into space... cold cold space. Where a warmish thingy will stick out like a sore thumb and a smallish warm thingy will have a hard job to make itself look big enough. Thermal imaging target identification is not the same as an IR seeking sensor.

For you to deploy your countermeasure you will have had to spot the attacker so you must already be in those ranges as currently all sensors have the same range and the super sensors are Densitometer and NAS which both require you to be much closer.

I am looking at those complex weapons you identified and despite their clever RADAR gizmos ain't one of them looking like an F117 or a Stratofortress to me with my visual sensors. You might fool an automated RADAR guided air defence system to fire on you as the nearest suitable target, but you won't fool an operator looking at an image from a RADAR directed telescope with electronic optical enhancement. And the RADAR will find you because you decided to say "hey look at me I'm a Stratofortress". They are also designed to be launched from stand-off ranges and behave like the relevant aircraft, not do something bizarre like suddenly split into four aircraft.

You might create useful targets to distract the pirates own volley of missiles (and that is a definitely a good thing) but you are not guaranteed to fool a sensor op (though you might make his job harder - so a negative DMs). If a ship trace suddenly breaks into four traces he knows something is up and will be looking for anomalies.

SEAD is a very specialised field with very specific aims and targets in mind much of it not suitable for public dissemination (but it is obviously the theoretically impressive volume of Soviet air defence systems and their skilled operators). Since Ukraine a lot of that design theory will likely change as the value of "many" has been devalued somewhat.

 

[Terry Mixon]

There needs to be a sensor missile. If ships could get sensor readings of pirates before they get clear, that might not save the current victim, but it would make it hard for that ship to ever show its thrusters in another system without getting asked serious questions.

 

[Vormaerin]

Compare Traveller Core Rules to the 2300 rules. 2300 ships have space dedicated to radiators and heat sinks. The sensor rules distinguish between thermal and EM signatures and also operate at longer, more sensible ranges. Of course, they also have a lot more granularity on sensort types and capabilities than Traveller Core.

 

[swordtart]

There needs to be a sensor missile. If ships could get sensor readings of pirates before they get clear, that might not save the current victim, but it would make it hard for that ship to ever show its thrusters in another system without getting asked serious questions.

And cautious captains could fire one off in the direction of ships that they have got a thermal tag on,. but not detail for a closer look see. One of the benefits of optically guided missiles was they could be fired at a suspect target and steered off if you had made a poor ident. I was told of at least one blue on blue that was prevented by that (from the individual who conducted the targeting).

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, preventing heat build up might tempt naval architects to make green spacecraft.

 

[Terry Mixon]

And cautious captains could fire one off in the direction of ships that they have got a thermal tag on,. but not detail for a closer look see. One of the benefits of optically guided missiles was they could be fired at a suspect target and steered off if you had made a poor ident. I was told of at least one blue on blue that was prevented by that (from the individual who conducted the targeting).

I suppose it would technically be a sensor probe but it would need to be as fast as a missile.

 

[Sigtrygg]

There needs to be a sensor missile. If ships could get sensor readings of pirates before they get clear, that might not save the current victim, but it would make it hard for that ship to ever show its thrusters in another system without getting asked serious questions.

Already on the list in my sensor rules additions.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Compare Traveller Core Rules to the 2300 rules. 2300 ships have space dedicated to radiators and heat sinks. The sensor rules distinguish between thermal and EM signatures and also operate at longer, more sensible ranges. Of course, they also have a lot more granularity on sensort types and capabilities than Traveller Core.

And can be adapted to produce a better set of universal sensor rules that can be modified by individual referees for their universes.

Want to go back to the good old CT sensor ranges? Or better yet the TNE version of sensors.

Most of the rules are thr in Mongoose, they just need to be brought together and modified for TL0->22

 

[Vormaerin]

T:NE is definitely my preference for sensor rules.

 

[swordtart]

I suppose it would technically be a sensor probe but it would need to be as fast as a missile.

Easy enough with a missile body robot (rather than trying to build one from a conventional body with thrusters).

 

[CordwainerFish]

I heard that a darkness acclimatised human eye can detect a single photon.

Not saying that should replace a ships visual sensor though

One photon will fire a photoreceptor cell but one cell alone will not produce a signal reaching the brain. (And what 'signal reaching the brain' means to the optic nerve is a few paragraphs in its own right. Stuff gets real complicated.)

 

[Condottiere]

Science fiction reaction is usually to send a probe.

I think the real life issue is if the other side views this as a hostile act, or thinks you just launched a missile.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Easy enough with a missile body robot (rather than trying to build one from a conventional body with thrusters).

Sadly, the robot sensors don't seem to be powerful enough for those ranges. They all seem to assume a closer environment. Unless I'm missing something.

 

[swordtart]

Sadly, the robot sensors don't seem to be powerful enough for those ranges. They all seem to assume a closer environment. Unless I'm missing something.

I didn't see anything causing a blanket limitation on sensor ranges. Particular ones (like densitometer) have stated ranges, but as the example missiles have homing brains and Thermal Sensors and have cruise ranges equivalent to ship missiles I presumed they were as sensitive as they needed to be (since there is no points having a missile with 100's KM range if it can only see 100 yards In the case of a thermal sensor in a missile that is just using it to home in then all you need is a sufficient temperature difference between background and the object.

Unless I am also missing something.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I didn't see anything causing a blanket limitation on sensor ranges. Particular ones (like densitometer) have stated ranges, but as the example missiles have homing brains and Thermal Sensors and have cruise ranges equivalent to ship missiles I presumed they were as sensitive as they needed to be (since there is no points having a missile with 100's KM range if it can only see 100 yards In the case of a thermal sensor in a missile that is just using it to home in then all you need is a sufficient temperature difference between background and the object.

Unless I am also missing something.

I think something is missing rather than us missing it. A basic thermal sensor won't get the data one wants to have a probe gather, and probably at a long range. There needs to be some kind of better sensor setup for those probes.