Would a far/free trader ever use missiles?

How are your marines withstanding the full 15G acceleration? According to MGT2 only the 9G thrust from the manoeuvre drive is compensated. I am not sure when GLOC is but 6G sounds like a lot for an extended period (i.e. 10's of minute rather than 10's of seconds).

Nevertheless I would hope a Type R specially converted to anti-piracy would be effective against a pirate. I am not sure that you can prevent them from firing though. Simply arriving in a ship going at a gazzilion miles an hour doesn't mean you can actually do anything with those marines. Missiles don't need to stop and force entry to board a ship.

Wouldn't you be better just using advanced missiles yourself? It would save 20 marines being splattered on a ships hull.
Fighter pilots routinely handle high g acceleration. I feel confident that unstated arrangements could be made for crews for ten minutes. It wouldn’t be comfortable, but these people train for things like this.
 
Yeah, there's lots of problems with this style of piracy. Your ship has to be hanging out in space between the planet and the 100D limit without anyone bothering it. Your target ship has to arrive in the same hemisphere as you or the planet will block the flash. There is then about a million km between "ooh, a jump flash" and "can vaguely discern what that ship is". You have to remain unbothered while accelerating on a course any computer can determine is an intercept, which means you have to mysteriously remain unnoticed while running active sensors and thrust. Then even if it's not a Q-ship, you have the usual issues of matching vectors, disabling the ship, boarding and transferring cargo, etc when the target has had plenty of time to build up velocity.

If this is a complete backwater where the local planet can't provide any anti piracy defenses, the trade is going to be armed free traders or the like. They'll fight back. And they aren't going to stroll down the yellow brick road straight at the starport when they can take a funky route to juke these blind intercepts. M-Drives mean fuel conservation isn't an issue and it is rare that the difference between 5 hours and 6 hours would outweigh safety issues.

And if you are wrong and it is Q-ship or whatever...that's the end of your career because you are deep in a jump shadow when all this goes down.
This is a mis-representation of the hypothesis I put forward. If you are not going to bother engaging with the argument I put forward, there is little point in discussing this further.
 
This is a mis-representation of the hypothesis I put forward. If you are not going to bother engaging with the argument I put forward, there is little point in discussing this further.
Well, then I didn't understand your hypothesis, nor did the other three people who reacted to it.
 
But the entire cargo transporting system is based on the type of starport and nothing to do with what is actually nearby. Far Trader did add a modifier based on whether a complementary system was nearby, but it wasn't much.
Yup. And most of the modifiers are pretty incestuous. WTN is pop + TL + ST. Trade Codes are heavily dominated by population. Importance is a different mix of pop/TL/Starport. The entire trade system is "large pop = trade". Which makes sense but doesn't really tell you a lot that you couldn't get from just looking at the pop figure alone.

Traveller has a general weakness in that everything is based on mainworlds in isolation if you just rely on dice rolls. This is why you have strings of worthless infrastructure worlds on what ought to be a substantial trade corridor between Regina and Efate, for example. The encounter table includes things like 'far traders' without any reference to whether it is even possible for a J2 vessel to reach that place.

That's all fine if you take it as examples of how to do things. It's a problem when you try to make it the scaffolding of further extrapolation.
 
Well, then I didn't understand your hypothesis, nor did the other three people who reacted to it.
You don't have to understand it to quote it accurately.

There seem to be more than 3 people who reacted to my posts and several of them engaged positively with the arguments put forward even if they didn't agree, so I assume they were willing to give it brain space. If you are not then you are free to ignore it, but please do not misquote it so that you can create a strawman argument to defeat.
 
Which part, the MGT2 rules or the application of them?
The rules.
If the energy from a jump flash (what form does it take by the way, EMR, gravitic radiation, neutrinos?) can be detected at that range then the energy of the maneuver drive, the power plant, the IR waste heat should all be detectable. A trandponder signal should be detectable at any range in system.

The MgT sensor rules are really in need of fixing...
 
That makes no sense at all.
I could see the jump-flash part making sense. After all, you could detect a supernova back in 1604, with no sensors at all. I guess things get messy when you dissolve a pocket universe.
Will have to give it a try one day and get back to you :whistle:
 
How are your marines withstanding the full 15G acceleration? According to MGT2 only the 9G thrust from the manoeuvre drive is compensated. I am not sure when GLOC is but 6G sounds like a lot for an extended period (i.e. 10's of minute rather than 10's of seconds).

I'm back home and can look up specific rules now.

At a baseline, they are subject to 6 uncompensated g's of acceleration. Put them in special acceleration couches and that gives them a DM+1 to consciousness rolls. If they are trained for high g maneuvers (as pilots and flyers are) that would give them a second DM+1 to consciousness rolls.

Now, let's see how they could mitigate some acceleration. A g-suit inside the battledress (doesn't seem too far a stretch) and that compensates for 1g. A dose of g-tolerance drug will chop off another g and reduce the compensated effect to 4 g's, which requires a single Average (8+) roll in a single combat round in space (6 minutes, not 10) and they get the DM+2 (+3 id they have pilot or flyer skill which they likely would) to beat that roll and stay conscious. The interwebz tell me that 5/6 of the crew will make that roll. No doubt those that fail will get ribbed.


Nevertheless I would hope a Type R specially converted to anti-piracy would be effective against a pirate. I am not sure that you can prevent them from firing though. Simply arriving in a ship going at a gazzilion miles an hour doesn't mean you can actually do anything with those marines. Missiles don't need to stop and force entry to board a ship.

Wouldn't you be better just using advanced missiles yourself? It would save 20 marines being splattered on a ships hull.
High Guard says a 15G missile arrives immediately at long and closer range. A fighter or boarding craft at the same speed should, in my opinion, get the same advantage. I read here somewhere that missiles at immediate ranges can't be fired at other than by point defense, so I may be wrong on that. If so, the pods and fighters are armored, and the military gets paid to take risks.

If outright destruction were the goal, missiles would be the answer. If you want prisoners and information off that ship to find hideouts and other illegal enterprises, getting boots on the deck is preferable. Just my take on it.
 
The rules.
If the energy from a jump flash (what form does it take by the way, EMR, gravitic radiation, neutrinos?) can be detected at that range then the energy of the maneuver drive, the power plant, the IR waste heat should all be detectable. A trandponder signal should be detectable at any range in system.

The MgT sensor rules are really in need of fixing...
Yup. The rules for sensors on ships don't make any sense with the way different gear options and the TL modifier supposedly work. The ranges don't make any sense. The fact that planets/stations/etc don't seem to have a way to have better sensors than a little ship can have doesn't make any sense.
 
Yup. The rules for sensors on ships don't make any sense with the way different gear options and the TL modifier supposedly work. The ranges don't make any sense. The fact that planets/stations/etc don't seem to have a way to have better sensors than a little ship can have doesn't make any sense.
Yup. Hopefully that will be addressed in the High Guard 202? Update, whenever that eventually happens.
 
A fighter or boarding craft at the same speed should, in my opinion, get the same advantage
The missiles don't have to slow down. At 15G's, the fighter is only going to get one shot before it goes flying by, while the boarding craft is going to fly by or go splat. "G's" are not a measure of velocity, they're a measure of acceleration.
 
The missiles don't have to slow down. At 15G's, the fighter is only going to get one shot before it goes flying by, while the boarding craft is going to fly by or go splat. "G's" are not a measure of velocity, they're a measure of acceleration.
Logical, so granted.

In my view, the military would find a single shot at them as they decelerated an acceptable risk. That's what they get paid for, after all. The fighters have 15 armor and the boarding pods 12, so they are better able to tolerate the damage. It's even possible the pirates would be surprised enough not to get that shot off or decide the consequences would be even worse if they did.
 
I'm back home and can look up specific rules now.

At a baseline, they are subject to 6 uncompensated g's of acceleration. Put them in special acceleration couches and that gives them a DM+1 to consciousness rolls. If they are trained for high g maneuvers (as pilots and flyers are) that would give them a second DM+1 to consciousness rolls.

Now, let's see how they could mitigate some acceleration. A g-suit inside the battledress (doesn't seem too far a stretch) and that compensates for 1g. A dose of g-tolerance drug will chop off another g and reduce the compensated effect to 4 g's, which requires a single Average (8+) roll in a single combat round in space (6 minutes, not 10) and they get the DM+2 (+3 id they have pilot or flyer skill which they likely would) to beat that roll and stay conscious. The interwebz tell me that 5/6 of the crew will make that roll. No doubt those that fail will get ribbed.
OK, that seems reasonable. They are marines after all. "We're on an express elevator to hell!!"
High Guard says a 15G missile arrives immediately at long and closer range. A fighter or boarding craft at the same speed should, in my opinion, get the same advantage. I read here somewhere that missiles at immediate ranges can't be fired at other than by point defense, so I may be wrong on that. If so, the pods and fighters are armored, and the military gets paid to take risks.
I don't disagree with the time of arrival or the inability to EW them, it is more the fact that they need to arrive with zero relative velocity if they intend to board.
The pirate was planning to arrive with near zero velocity so that bit is easy. The issue is if they are going to get there "immediately" they are going to have to use full burn all the way. If they want to arrive with no relative velocity they need to turn halfway. That means they are not arriving immediately.
Since they are no longer arriving immediately they can be targeted or the pirate can take evasive action. Now the Pirate is aware that this isn't going to be easy he'll bail on the engagement. As everyone will be at zero relative velocity it becomes a simple stern chase. Time to early jump.
If outright destruction were the goal, missiles would be the answer. If you want prisoners and information off that ship to find hideouts and other illegal enterprises, getting boots on the deck is preferable. Just my take on it.
Ok that makes sense. You still have 4 hardpoints (plus whatever the battle taxis have). The marines probably have weaponry that can cause ship damage as well so you have plenty of firepower if it goes the other way.

I am not sure that the average pirate would be taking on a Subbie since it has up to to 4 hardpoints and as they tend to carry mail they are supposed to have gunners. At Very Long range he can visually detect your shape and basic structure and will realise you are not a 200 ton or less craft. At that point he'll re-engage thrust and alter vector slightly for a fly-by. If he never intercepts or hails you have no proof or indication he intended piracy. If you identify yourself as the law and turn to intercept he'll pull over like a good boy, some "fault" will be discovered with his transponder (it not transmitting is less difficult to explain than it not working). He'll pay the fine and you'll have nothing.

You could maybe do all or some of this this with a Free Trader with 83 tons of cargo space to turn into Q-Ship goodness. That would be a much more tempting target and would be less obviously a trap. The engagement will still be a challenge but that is anti-piracy operations.
 
The rules.
If the energy from a jump flash (what form does it take by the way, EMR, gravitic radiation, neutrinos?) can be detected at that range then the energy of the maneuver drive, the power plant, the IR waste heat should all be detectable. A trandponder signal should be detectable at any range in system.

The MgT sensor rules are really in need of fixing...
Possibly. To be fair the thermal signature is also detectable out to 300,000 Km (minimally). That is just a bearing and a heat level so it will need to be to be triangulated but that is not impossible if you have more than one sensor in the right places. I have assumed that is the IN job to add vector information to the track picture, but in poor systems that may not be the case. Even with multiple sensors it won't happen instantly but even with a single sensor it may be enough to confirm an assumed course or calculate one after a few hits (ship turns and sensor rolls).

An active transponder does have all but infinite range (only limited by the speed of light) and gives the full ship profile. This could be collated by the planet and that portside IN coordination vessel or ...a pirate. It is not mandated in areas where piracy is common as it also broadcasts your position to errr... pirates. It is an elective option. Even if active is mandated by the system you could forget or deactivate it "by mistake" and that would attract maybe a fine, attention but not justify immediate attack. There is a facility to interrogate a transponder using an override code, but this is not fool proof as it requires the correct code and these change frequently so that pirates don't get them. Not responding could just be because your codes are out of date (Navy vessels probably use the most recent code and then try older codes if they get no response).

Any radio signal can of course be interrupted by various space effects, Ionisation, clutter, intervening objects and failure of equipment may be an irritation to customs officers on tramp ships.

Ships leaving a system would probably be of less interest than ships arriving in system as the departing ships would have already been catalogued extensively.
 
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I could see the jump-flash part making sense. After all, you could detect a supernova back in 1604, with no sensors at all. I guess things get messy when you dissolve a pocket universe.
Will have to give it a try one day and get back to you :whistle:
We know how much energy goes into the jump process.
 
The missiles don't have to slow down. At 15G's, the fighter is only going to get one shot before it goes flying by, while the boarding craft is going to fly by or go splat. "G's" are not a measure of velocity, they're a measure of acceleration.
You will be saying that makes dogfighting impossible next.
 


And when the missile misses, it can make a comeback.
Yup, it just teleports to where it needs to be.

Meanwhile in the "real world" it has to flip, decelerate, then accelerate to intercept. How many times can it do this until it hits? Infinite endurance, just a day's worth?
 
I don't disagree with the time of arrival or the inability to EW them, it is more the fact that they need to arrive with zero relative velocity if they intend to board.
The pirate was planning to arrive with near zero velocity so that bit is easy. The issue is if they are going to get there "immediately" they are going to have to use full burn all the way. If they want to arrive with no relative velocity they need to turn halfway. That means they are not arriving immediately.
Since they are no longer arriving immediately they can be targeted or the pirate can take evasive action. Now the Pirate is aware that this isn't going to be easy he'll bail on the engagement. As everyone will be at zero relative velocity it becomes a simple stern chase. Time to early jump.

Admitted on the inability to be fired on. They will take some fire. EW might soften they hit they take, though.

As far as the Q-Ship still being too far out, that is debatable. Even at 1G acceleration vs 3Gs for the pirate, it still has a decent chance of being closer than 90 diameters, especially if it doesn't heave to as ordered. That would take an early jump off the table.

I am not sure that the average pirate would be taking on a Subbie since it has up to to 4 hardpoints and as they tend to carry mail they are supposed to have gunners. At Very Long range he can visually detect your shape and basic structure and will realise you are not a 200 ton or less craft. At that point he'll re-engage thrust and alter vector slightly for a fly-by. If he never intercepts or hails you have no proof or indication he intended piracy. If you identify yourself as the law and turn to intercept he'll pull over like a good boy, some "fault" will be discovered with his transponder (it not transmitting is less difficult to explain than it not working). He'll pay the fine and you'll have nothing.

That close of an approach is enough to a Q-Ship to order him to heave to. At very long range, that is still more than enough time for the pre-deployed fighters to be all over him. The boarding pods will take a few rounds to be on him, but if he fires, the fighters and the Q-Ship will make him deeply regret it.

You could maybe do all or some of this this with a Free Trader with 83 tons of cargo space to turn into Q-Ship goodness. That would be a much more tempting target and would be less obviously a trap. The engagement will still be a challenge but that is anti-piracy operations.

A point. I'll have to see what I can build.
 
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