World War III anyone?

[Tom Kalbfus]

I'll start off with this link:
http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-showdown-with-west-will-worsen-2014-11
There has been much talk about 2300 AD, and a number of articles about World War II vehicles for Traveller. Now using the same system for World War II, what if we adapted that for World War III? Kind of like Twilight 2000, but we don't have to call it that. Twilight 2000 was conceived in 1984. If it was conceived today, but counting the number of years, it would have been called Twilight 2030, but lets get rid of the word Twilight and simply call it World War III. What do we know about the weapons and vehicles that would be used for World War III if we set a date for it in 2030? What are the differences between now and 1984 if we were to try and create a game for this today?
Here are some relevant links:
http://nypost.com/2009/05/23/soldier-of-the-future/
http://sploid.gizmodo.com/us-air-force-fighter-jets-will-have-laser-weapons-by-20-1469667517

It seems to me that we had a better idea of what World War III would look like in the year 2000 by 1984, than we do about what such a war would look like in 2030 today. I guess the problem is, we've haven't done much thinking about World War III today as we had done by 1984. So it seems making a World War III game based in Traveller or any other game would be harder that it was in 1984.

 

[Reynard]

I extrapolate Putin and his hand picked successors have been more actively grabbing back lost territory as they rebuild the Soviet glory while a touch of paranoia and arrogance has them revamping the military feeling the world will, for some reason, be negative to these actions. China has been draining the US worst than in our timeline while expanding more in the Pacific region whether their neighbors like it or not. They also decide to modernize and grow their military. All this makes it easier for the US to a more conservative government over a couple decades reminiscent of the Reagan Era. Europe gets caught in the middle with a cautious build up but nothing too obvious.

Then there's the Middle East. Tensions and violence are much more intense in this timeline and the superpowers take more active intervention there causing more friction. Muslim extremists gain more foothold especially in Africa since the powers are too busy focusing on each other. And yes, Ebola has gone pandemic there with little assistance from outside causing Europe and the Asian gateway putting much resources to border protection.

Those terrorist cells we fantasize about here weren't a fantasy there as they got their greatest wish and detonated two nuclear devices in New York and London. Not thinking this through, they had snapped the wire and the world saw this not as ISIS making a statement but the eastern powers launching a preemptive strike.

Even though Europe saw damage, it would be the big three who get bombed back to paleolithic times. Conventional war is on the European tabletop and even that will wind down as each sides war stockpile run down from the destruction by the primary strikes and the world begins its Twilight 2030. Too tired to fight, each side rebuilds. France still emerges the best to rise first being relatively farthest from the fighting and destruction.

So there. New, new timeline. Next!

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

I extrapolate Putin and his hand picked successors have been more actively grabbing back lost territory as they rebuild the Soviet glory while a touch of paranoia and arrogance has them revamping the military feeling the world will, for some reason, be negative to these actions. China has been draining the US worst than in our timeline while expanding more in the Pacific region whether their neighbors like it or not. They also decide to modernize and grow their military. All this makes it easier for the US to a more conservative government over a couple decades reminiscent of the Reagan Era. Europe gets caught in the middle with a cautious build up but nothing too obvious.

Then there's the Middle East. Tensions and violence are much more intense in this timeline and the superpowers take more active intervention there causing more friction. Muslim extremists gain more foothold especially in Africa since the powers are too busy focusing on each other. And yes, Ebola has gone pandemic there with little assistance from outside causing Europe and the Asian gateway putting much resources to border protection.

Those terrorist cells we fantasize about here weren't a fantasy there as they got their greatest wish and detonated two nuclear devices in New York and London. Not thinking this through, they had snapped the wire and the world saw this not as ISIS making a statement but the eastern powers launching a preemptive strike.

Even though Europe saw damage, it would be the big three who get bombed back to paleolithic times. Conventional war is on the European tabletop and even that will wind down as each sides war stockpile run down from the destruction by the primary strikes and the world begins its Twilight 2030. Too tired to fight, each side rebuilds. France still emerges the best to rise first being relatively farthest from the fighting and destruction.

So there. New, new timeline. Next!

So your saying players should role play cowards to get ahead, like France did in the 2300 timeline? So the Russians come, the players run and hide? Why role play that, when you can be a coward in real life? I think the PCs fighting a plague is rather pointless and unexciting. There has to be someone to shoot at!

 

[Reynard]

WAIT! WHOA! Where did I say that?!

I brought up the Ebola angle because it is having effects to our world and could having a greater influence on a world that doesn't have the time to casually deal with it and acting as a second front to European concerns.

And as to France as a bunch of cowards in either timeline, that is YOUR opinion!! I was setting the stage as to why Europe survived a little better than the major war powers. Once the primary attacks finish, conventional warfare would be in effect. I had Britain take a pounding. The war front becomes continental with Europe against the remnants of Russia and France is at the far end but still fighting. I saw this timeline's Twilight similar to the original but not the same which I thought was the point of your subject.

Don't read what's not there.

 

[dragoner]

GDW was a historical wargame company for most of their products, in 2300, and the dominance of France was due to Napoleonic influence, they even mention it, iirc. It is a renewed French Empire, etc.; except that the economics aren't there. An impoverished Europe will impoverish France, just as it was said that an impoverished Germany will impoverish Europe, where with Germany having a stronger economy than France; and we even just saw in the recent economic downturn that the US gave 600 Billion to the EU central bank in Frankfurt to keep the economy liquid.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

WAIT! WHOA! Where did I say that?!

I brought up the Ebola angle because it is having effects to our world and could having a greater influence on a world that doesn't have the time to casually deal with it and acting as a second front to European concerns.

And as to France as a bunch of cowards in either timeline, that is YOUR opinion!! I was setting the stage as to why Europe survived a little better than the major war powers. Once the primary attacks finish, conventional warfare would be in effect. I had Britain take a pounding. The war front becomes continental with Europe against the remnants of Russia and France is at the far end but still fighting. I saw this timeline's Twilight similar to the original but not the same which I thought was the point of your subject.

Don't read what's not there.

I'm not calling the French cowards, it was just the way they behaved in the timeline that was cowardly, such as not participating in World War III. I'm not sure what the French would really do.

Ebola, it appears is not as dangerous as it was touted, it mostly spread because of ignorant Africans. Probably there would be a lot less travel in the aftermath of a nuclear war, and I suspect that by 2030, Ebola would likely be yesterday's news.

There are a few differences, The front would be further to the east, and you might have NATO troops in Russian villages and towns, the Russians encountered wouldn't all be soldiers. Their might be Poles and Ukrainians serving with American and British soldiers. And by 2030 there would likely be more robust ABM systems on both sides, and all the nukes would not get used, they would be used reluctantly if at all, because those that use them would know what it means. One possible scenario would be a Russian Civil War, with NATO joining in on one side.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

GDW was a historical wargame company for most of their products, in 2300, and the dominance of France was due to Napoleonic influence, they even mention it, iirc. It is a renewed French Empire, etc.; except that the economics aren't there. An impoverished Europe will impoverish France, just as it was said that an impoverished Germany will impoverish Europe, where with Germany having a stronger economy than France; and we even just saw in the recent economic downturn that the US gave 600 Billion to the EU central bank in Frankfurt to keep the economy liquid.

I'm not sure Napoleon would have agreed that cowardice is the best way to build an Empire.

 

[Rick]

Ebola, it appears is not as dangerous as it was touted, it mostly spread because of ignorant Africans.

Ebola was mostly spread due to the extreme poverty of these areas - I'm not talking 'I can't afford my rent and the internet' poor - I'm talking about starvation-level, no power, no running water, no toilets, no sanitation, dirt-poor 'I barely even have a roof and 1 wall' poor. You'd have to go back to the middle ages in Europe to compare with the conditions these people live in.

Think yourself damn lucky you live in luxury that is beyond the dreams of most Africans.

 

[dragoner]

I'm not sure Napoleon would have agreed that cowardice is the best way to build an Empire.

So what? Boney tried militarism and it failed, just like Hitler and the Prussians. Just like them he was no master of economics, not like the British, who built the largest empire on earth through economics and were fully to say "Honour's just a name". Economics ruled yesterday, today, and the future as well. Russia today is the sick man of Europe, the most corrupt of the "Great Nations"; the age of empires is pretty much over, if the west decides to destroy itself in war, it will only open the door for the rise of new economic powerhouses such as Africa, South America, India, and Indonesia. The greatest resource any nation has is it's people, next is just to build on knowledge capital: technology.

 

[Rick]

The most corrupt of the "Great Nations"

Yes, but only by degree; corruption seems to be endemic to all nations to a greater or lesser extent, some openly, some hidden. Follow the trail of world gold bullion stocks around from the 30's to the present day and you'll see a blatant example of greed and corruption (not the Nazi gold - that has been well documented, if not entirely recovered; this is the gold bullion that was kept out of Nazi hands, less well documented and pretty much never recovered at all).

 

[sideranautae]

Yawn. There won't be WW 3 over the Ukraine or other areas of Europe. Most Americans don't care that Russia takes some land. The EU has more population & more money than the US. If it cares it will defend itself. If not, it isn't our job to do it for them.

 

[Rick]

Give the US its' due - the administration will care about problems overseas if it will divert attention from its' problems at home! :twisted:

 

[sideranautae]

Give the US its' due - the administration will care about problems overseas if it will divert attention from its' problems at home! :twisted:

Of course you are correct. However, 60 (statutory deployment limit for PotUS) ain't enough. And, the present congress would have the troops pulled after that. (I got that straight from a GOP leader).

The EU countries might rue not having military needed to defend themselves...

 

[Rick]

Poland are likely to wet themselves, not sure anybody in Europe has much to worry about frankly.

 

[sideranautae]

Poland are likely to wet themselves, not sure anybody in Europe has much to worry about frankly.

I agree. I believe that regaining some strategic areas in the Ukraine is the ultimate goal. There is no appetite amongst the Russian pop to invade further than that country. Poland is always going to be fearful because of history and geography. Best if we don't beef up there as that feeds Russian paranoia (based again on history).

 

[Reynard]

The whole purpose of this exercise is a chain of events to create a conclusion of a nasty world war. Basing it on calmer and more sensible avenues on our timeline doesn't push The Button.

 

[dragoner]

The most corrupt of the "Great Nations"

Yes, but only by degree...

By the worst degree possible? I read a few years back where a JAG from their army went to the Duma to say 25% of their military budget was stolen. Other countries are corrupt, but Russia is at the bottom of the TI index, the only one worse is about the Ukraine. Putin is the Berlusconi of the north, and it is pretty evident he could care less about his people. As far as commodities, like gold, that is pretty blah, 50% of diamonds are said to be kept off the market to keep it inflated through artificial scarcity. None of this leads to a world shattering war, one thing that could seriously hurt the world economy, would be if London was destroyed, it is the financial capital of the world.

 

[dragoner]

The whole purpose of this exercise is a chain of events to create a conclusion of a nasty world war. Basing it on calmer and more sensible avenues on our timeline doesn't push The Button.

You mean in some ultra-grimdark scenario, where everyone is wearing black eye makeup? Something could be played out ala the movie "Hardware" probably.

I find that a more realistic scenario is not to have WW3, it just isn't in anybody's interests, it's suicide. Which while certain groups in the past may have been very stupid, I don't think they were overtly suicidal in going to war, but that they thought that they could win.

An era of peace and prosperity could also bring out exploration.

 

[sideranautae]

one thing that could seriously hurt the world economy, would be if London was destroyed, it is the financial capital of the world.

London isn't the financial capital of the world any more. New York is.

 

[Reynard]

"An era of peace and prosperity could also bring out exploration."

This particular thread was bringing up 2300AD in the context of alternate WWIII scenarios. There is, I believe, another thread postulating other alternate 2300 timelines including non-WWIII. I whole heartily go for the a lighter option. How about a fill in up to 2300?