Will the up-coming 'Conan Bestiary' be considered essential?

[pa11ad1n]

As the game is based on Howard's vision....(the original) the world is not one with countless monsters around every corner.

.. except Conan meets one in nearly each and every adventure. OK, so that's one monster, but still...

Nuff said on that....If we can all agree that someone disagreed with me on this point I can move on, yes?

As for not understanding where I am coming from...

I am trying to preserve the feel of the Hyberian world. A world that, as we have already stated, does not have a monster around every corner.

Day to day life would not include weird stuff. Do we agree on this?

Assuming that we do...

How can you get your players (who may not have read conan and who are familier with games lie D&D) to get this feeling if weird stuff happens to them every time they take up their character sheets?

I understand where you are coming from. It is fine if all of your players are familier with the concept of what Conan is about. Many don't, I try to make sure that the feel of the world is properly preserved for these people.

If you can appreciate that I may be allowed to continue after the Open Day.



PS. Apparently my personality type takes disagreements personally.
I'm trying not to...

 

[Raphael]

[snip]

I am trying to preserve the feel of the Hyberian world. A world that, as we have already stated, does not have a monster around every corner.

Day to day life would not include weird stuff. Do we agree on this?

Assuming that we do...

How can you get your players (who may not have read conan and who are familier with games lie D&D) to get this feeling if weird stuff happens to them every time they take up their character sheets?

Ahhh. Now I get it.
Many of us, including Hyborian Apeman, IIRC, play a very episodic style of campaign wherein it matters not how those 400 silver pieces were reduced to a mere 8 since the last adventure. It sounds as if you play a more traditional style of campaign (at least traditional in that it is what I have played a majority of) that is fairly strict in in being linear.
Now I get it!
Here's the question Apeman, in an episodic style of game, how do you preserve the atmosphere of terror/dread/rarity that surrounds weird elements in Hyboria?
Pa11ad1n does it by playing/emphasizing the mundaneness (I don't think that's a word :wink: ) of Hyboria. I think Mongoose has helped us out by making sure that there aren't magic sword stands in the suq or healers at every temple. Also by there not being monster races.

As for this...

PS. Apparently my personality type takes disagreements personally.
I'm trying not to...

Not at all. You've done well to keep this exchange civil and moving forward. And now, if I get your point, we can begin moving past the disagreement stage and into the beneficial exchange part.[/quote]

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Adding my .02 again, I have to say that what the Hyborian world does is emphasize the dread of the supernatural. Sorcery, even my version, is hard to control, dangerous and often creates more problems than it solves. Thus it is disliked by a lot of cultures and those that embrace do so at the cost of their essential humanity.

SPOILER- my players don't read

This is a theme coming up in my PCs as the two Priests in the group are about to have a conflict of interest between the inhuman goals of their 'deities' and the goals more along the line of common humanity shared by the rest of the group. To the point where one PC might have to choose between losing their ability to use magic or effectively losing their soul by performing a terrible deed.

END SPOILER

As for supernatural creatures- don't make the mistake of overusing them. Human adversaries can provide just as much of a problem. A 12th level Soldier with a dozen combat related feats and good equipment can be just as effective threat as a supernatural monster- if not more so. After all he or she is not especially vulnerable to fire or silver and likely has oodles of henchmen from his or her Leadership Feat. Then there are those pesky Nobles that infulence the fate of millions without a single whiff of supernatural power. And then there is the worst threat of all- Mother Nature. Predators. diseases, natural disaters, parasites, exhaustion, hunger, thirst- all of these things are far more persistant than supernatural threats and just as deadly if used the right way. Nature does swallow the weak after all....

Raven

 

[Strom]

Adding my .02 again, I have to say that what the Hyborian world does is emphasize the dread of the supernatural. Sorcery, even my version, is hard to control, dangerous and often creates more problems than it solves. Thus it is disliked by a lot of cultures and those that embrace do so at the cost of their essential humanity.

SPOILER- my players don't read

This is a theme coming up in my PCs as the two Priests in the group are about to have a conflict of interest between the inhuman goals of their 'deities' and the goals more along the line of common humanity shared by the rest of the group. To the point where one PC might have to choose between losing their ability to use magic or effectively losing their soul by performing a terrible deed.

END SPOILER

As for supernatural creatures- don't make the mistake of overusing them. Human adversaries can provide just as much of a problem. A 12th level Soldier with a dozen combat related feats and good equipment can be just as effective threat as a supernatural monster- if not more so. After all he or she is not especially vulnerable to fire or silver and likely has oodles of henchmen from his or her Leadership Feat. Then there are those pesky Nobles that infulence the fate of millions without a single whiff of supernatural power. And then there is the worst threat of all- Mother Nature. Predators. diseases, natural disaters, parasites, exhaustion, hunger, thirst- all of these things are far more persistant than supernatural threats and just as deadly if used the right way. Nature does swallow the weak after all....

Raven

Agree and wonder just how big a book this will be? Essentially, it should be filled with pregenerated NPC's or normal wildlife in order to make it a book "of substance" , yes?

 

[urdinaran]

I too, was wondering on the content of the upcoming book. I made a list of the creatures so far published and have found that there aren't a whole lot of low-level creatures out there. I am about to start my campaign on Sunday, but luckily, I have converted some D&D creatures to suit my campaign.
Not all creatures will fit the bill; I have decided add some Mythological creatures (i.e. Minotaurs, Chimeras, etc.) and some Cthulhu-type creatures (weird/bizarre), and of course some of the more mundane varieties (montrous variants such as centipedes/scorpions, some Dire also).

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

Here's the question Apeman, in an episodic style of game, how do you preserve the atmosphere of terror/dread/rarity that surrounds weird elements in Hyboria?
Pa11ad1n does it by playing/emphasizing the mundaneness (I don't think that's a word :wink: ) of Hyboria. I think Mongoose has helped us out by making sure that there aren't magic sword stands in the suq or healers at every temple. Also by there not being monster races.

For starters, I have a great set of players. One of my players is a Shemite with a dreaded fear of Hunaman, and any mention of apes and the like has the PC role-playing a sense of dread and fear, which is contagious.

I also use vivid descriptions of the monsters and magics. With the PCs not being familiar with the Conan bestary, they have no basis of comparison stat-wise, so they have to rely on my descriptions. On this vain, I have the PCs roll a d20 for saves and various affects, and I add the appropriate modifiers for their PCs. They have no idea what they are rolling for, let alone how it will apply to the events described.

I often include a few NPCs of various levels with the party, and those NPCs are often the victim of some of the initial nasty affects of what I am throwing at them.

For example, in one gaming session the PCs came across their first Apeman. I had the PCs roll a d20 and I added their will save for the terror affects, and they passed, so I described the hideous creature they were encountering. The apeman used his two claws and rend attack against a 1st level nomad who was accompanying the PCs. I was pretty vivid in describing the various pieces their friend was in after the attack. As they did not know that stats of their friend initially, nor the stats of the Apeman, they were pretty afraid and fled despite having made their terror save. The fact that the Shemite was convinced that the apeman was the reincarnation of a very evil man (do to his religious and superstitious beliefs) added to their fear of this unknown creature.

I also never throw the same thing at them twice. Things will always be new and mysterious for them.

Anyone else have tricks?

 

[The King]

Anyone else have tricks?

One can also include a kind of Sanity Rules (as for Call of Cthulhu or the older version of Stormbringer) for aberrations, demons and other weird monsters.

When Conan feels magic he becomes a mindless berseker fighting in a state of frenzy and doesn't care if he takes damage (or could be killed) as long as he destroys the being responsible of his state.

 

[InsomNY]

When Conan feels magic he becomes a mindless berseker fighting in a state of frenzy and doesn't care if he takes damage (or could be killed) as long as he destroys the being responsible of his state.

In other words, the Crimson Mist class ability of barbarians. :roll:

 

[The King]

When Conan feels magic he becomes a mindless berseker fighting in a state of frenzy and doesn't care if he takes damage (or could be killed) as long as he destroys the being responsible of his state.

In other words, the Crimson Mist class ability of barbarians. :roll:

Exactly but you can extrapolate to other classes. Not all people behave and react the same.
For instance, Shemite are very supersticious and are more likely to run than to fight as Conan would.
I remember in one story that a sorcerer has summoned a demon-thing looking like a camel.
A Shemite rider who sees this demon could very well developp some kind of instinctive fear toward camels and horses until he can defeat such a thing.

 

[LokiOne]

I would love to see a compilation of Creatures put together in one binding. Not to say that there should be odd critters at every turn and twist ala D&D .... but it's nice to have a 'menu' to choose from when searching for a suitable animal, spirit, outsider, aberration, demon to put into a Scenario that I'm writing ...

Oh - and I think that 'normal' animals have a perfect place in there too ...

I'd LIKE to see a Mammoth listing, or Caribou, Mountain Bear, "Komodo Dragons of Khitai" whatever fits the game. Troll through the descriptions in Road of Kings, etc (The Novels) and see what I mean ....

At the end section of the proposed book, there could be some examples of "One Off's" such as Demons, Guardians, Avatars,etc. Like the listing for Khosettra Khel in Scrolls of Skelos.

I just went out and bought a v3.5 Monster Manual, and have been trolling through finding Conan suitable critters.

 

[pa11ad1n]

I agree it would be nice to have a list of monsters so that you can chose what would be suitable.

Still going to avoid putting mosters in every adventure.

My campaign actually runs semi-episodic. It runs as long storys (involving mostly mundane enemies, but with the occasional....interesting stuff), then jumps. I run most my campaigns this way.

The important thing is simply this: that the players don't get used to weird stuff. If they expect it during every adventure you lose the impact no matter how good your descriptions.

 

[LokiOne]

I don't think that there should be weird Beasties around every corner either....

...but there are wild animals Out There, with the occasional creepy supernatural thing lurking at the periphery. A lot of tension can be built up, with the primal hackles of the PC's rising with each progressive brush with the 'thing'.

Then there's the PC Sholars who sooner or later end up consorting with Demons and suchlike. Where's the Stats for Them ??? We had a Demon thing provided in the Shadizar boxed set, some listed in Scrolls of Skelos, and plenty of critters spread throughout Pirate Isles, etc.

There are lions in the jungles of Vendiya(listed), crocodiles in the marshes of the Styx in Stygia (listed), even a herd of Caribou could be a hazard (Northern Turan? Nordheim?).

Like I said - it's just a compiled Menu of things to choose from, that's all. A chance for the game designers to fill out some of the missing creatures, as were mentioned in any of the novels, The Road of Kings,etc. I didn't suggest that things should be a 'Monster Bash' at all ...

I know that most of the interaction in the adventure should be with the machinations/ intrigues/ politics of the peoples and personalities in the Hyborian Kingdoms.

I like running things in Episodic style as well ... rather like my old West End Games STAR WARS RPG. Next time ... I will start My Players off at the Pictish Frontier .... as they help defend an Outpost against the merceless locals (He - he).

I believe the term is called 'in media res' (Latin?sp?) Literally "in the middle" of things.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

I kind of prefer a continous timeline- watching the players react to the world about them and allowing them some choice in their actions. I am after all talking about a group that gets along better with Picts than with most Hyborians. Come the above scenario, they might be helping the Picts tear down the fortress. Thus the storyline is a surprise even to me. I mean they are already wanted for wiping out a village on the Bossonian Marches. Now said village had secretly degenerated into a cult of cannibals, but I never forced them to use the 'ethnic cleasing' option. They could have wlaked away, alerted the authorities, etc, but instead they took it personal when the townsfolk tried to put them on the menu.....

Of course, I do maintain the 'illusion of free will' as well. If I need to suck them into a scenario I am excellent at picking the bait- I haven't had a player able to avoid it yet. I am after all very good at temptation....8)

Raven, whose players sometimes refer to themselves as 'a walking UN violation'

 

[The King]

It is hard to fear animals at high levels. I remember a short Conan story by de Camp though (the castle of terror) where Conan has to take refuge in a ruined castle because he is hunted by a pack of lions.
The first chronological short story (also by de Camp) features some wolfs on the spur of Conan as he evaded still enchained (the thing in the crypt).

However at very high levels (15+) I can't see any normal creature be a threat to an adventurers group.

 

[InsomNY]

Even at high levels, animals can be a threat if the party is low enough on resources. Find a way to start them without armor, or with poor weapons, or weakened by being the last survivorsof a great battle, and suddenly a pack of hyenas is deadly again.

The key is to use animals (slightly buffed-up if necessary) who can manage 20 or more points of damage, or a pack of weaker animals who can wear the party out with lots of small-damage attacks and special abilities like Improved Trip.

A stampede of critters (LokiOne's caribou are good; elephants are even better) is also a big threat, especially if a few aggressive specimens stop to fight post-trample.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Also, if you have time, watch specials about animals on TV (such as on Animal Planet) and use real-life tactics. My DnD players (DnD characters are harder to challenge than Conan characters, IMHO) used to fear my crocodiles and lions more than my dragons - until I started playing my dragons like real animals (at which point my black dragons became all but invincible to even high level parties).

Watching the TV specials also helps with the descriptions.

 

[The King]

It will sound amazing but I don't have the TV ( :shock. However I remember looking at such animal filming.
With the mass of magical power available at D&D it is harder to make them fear anything (though I recognise that there is many major difference between the dragons of ADD 1.0 and ADD 2.0 (and the Dragonlance campaign has lost all its lure through these rules).

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Considering that a number of prehistoric creatures seem to be still kicking around in the Hyborian Age, importing the 'raptors from Jurrasic Park could be considered genre. Now there's a pack of 'animals' that could mess up a group of high level characters.

Raven, who already feels gaming statistics forming......

 

[The King]

I agree that monstruous animals (giant serpents, bears, boars, etc..) also pose a threat (any Howard used this idea a lot along with many other writers), but they don't provoke the innate fear of magic and powers from beyond that lie in each human.
Still I believe these animals aren't a big threat to experienced PC's: though they may be very cunning, especially predators. they lack the reflective intelligence.
Don't forget man is the greatest predator because he doesn't only kill for food or for fun but also for its own and immense needs (skins, tooth, tusks, etc..)
The majority of PC's are natural born killers and are used (or should be used) to imagine everything in their power to eradicate each and every threat he is confronted with.
That is exactly what he is doing since he left his caverns.

People, especially scientists, are still wondering how dinosaurus disappeared but one thing is pretty sure: even if they had survived that period they would have been extinct by mankind as it did to every species threatening his evolution: lions, wolves and bears were common in Western Europe in ancient times.
Now the tigers are concerned.

 

[LokiOne]

I don't know whether there have been some specific published rules for running mass groups of critters, that have the ability to 'pull down' a larger creature (As a combat tactic).

Many of my Players chortle at the challenge of dispatching much smaller critters (Unless I've misread the Swarm descriptions). I realize that even Conan could have been in real serious trouble, had he allowed the wolf pack to work together to take him down (Improoved Trip - Animal Feat).

It's obviously a lot harder to 'hit' bunches of smaller animals crawling all over you, flowing over you, or 'nipping at the heels'. I recall reading about the combat tactics of some of the Fey Fairie folk (Pixies, I think???), and how deadly their combined attack could be ... I've seen some other listings of Swarms in the v3.5 D&D Monster Manual (That I've been picking through - looking for Conan suitable creatures)(Not Pixies ...).

I imagine that being pursued by a 'rogue/ enraged Elephant or Mammoth could be a nasty experience (In the open/ plains ...).

Speaking of more unusual challenges - what would the 'Komodo Dragons of Khitai' be like. I think that the the RL ones are 'only' about the size of a small sofa. I presume that the ones in the Eastern Lands could be Giant versions.

I don't want to unleash things that won't fit into the Thurian World, just fill in some holes appropriate to the relevant regions. I certainly haven't gone through all the Coan novels, Dark Horse Comics and other sources seeking every nonhuman form (That's what still staggers me about Road of Kings - I still haven't read through it all).

By the way ... How do people handle 'chase scenes' with the PC's mounted, etc. Especially if things take several days, such as in a (reverse) hunt, where the PC's/ horses, etc are the prey ...(he - he).