Why is refined fuel so expensive?

[BFalcon]

No problems...

With regards to the hulls - agreed - I think the collapsible hull idea would be the best, to be honest - minimise the traffic going back and forth - you'd need little more than a big foil bag with a beacon on in any case... probably safer to build it like that to be honest - any collision and it's the unmanned pod that'd die and not a manned ship. Also, the lighter the hull, the less gravity will affect its trajectory for any given velocity and the less it'll slow down the tugs (or the more it can catch in one outing). As for spares - anything needed urgently, I agree, but who cares if the tanker spares your crew wants is shipped up or put in a pod - if you have plenty of cargo space on the station then it won't make much difference for 99% of the time.

Possibly. But the fuel barge is essentially moving at a relatively slow rate, and it would be equipped with basic thrusters to alter its course as necessary if an object was in its path. And any ship under power can easily avoid it. I'm thinking that anything too light would run the risk of being ruptured by a stray meteroid. As far as spares being shipped on the barge. Well, these aren't shielded at all, so any cargo would have to be able to be exposed to space and radiation. A differnt sort of barge would be needed for true cargo - but the elements are the same however.

Ah ok - I was imagining a pod without thrusters - just a purely ballistic shell with hydrogen in it and sent in multiple batches (so if one did hit an object, for example, it wouldn't be too bad since the rest would almost certainly miss it). The cargo pods (which would also be 1 in 3, for example, of the total number) would be more heavily built since they'd be bringing the less sturdy "empties" back with them.

I would consider having a "half-year holiday" and storing the fuel in the tanks or having a relay station for those times - constant 10-hour burns are going to eat up fuel which could otherwise be shipped and sold... have you considered a mass-driver/railgun? One large enough to load the pod might be able to get it up to speed a lot easier than a ship could... the pod would then just become a large "bullet" to be caught by ships at the other end and harvested. The magnetic induction could, I guess, also charge the battery for the beacon, but I'm less sure of that.

The gas giant is going to offer unlimited fuel, and the receiving station would need to catch the inbounds and boost outbounds. But that could be factored into the operations. Since they would own the fuel, the actual cost is much less than regular starship operations. But something to consider.

I'd still expect to use ships for the catching, to be honest - it would make them easier to adjust to a near miss from a larger object throwing off their trajectory, errors or mid-flight adjustments by the thrusters you mentioned from causing a "miss". Those ships could be the Recovery Ships from Starports, meaning that the outpost could also act as an emergency rescue station as well as a fuel depot. Smaller Tugs could be held in either as an emergency reserve force in case of flooded demand or in case one or more of the recovery ships are called away.

You could have a second station on another gas giant with stationed tugs to act as the relay if need be, but I'll leave the exact details for your version to you.

I had thought about that, but the vagaries of orbital mechanics kind of make the station hard to justify. It would have to be placed far enough away from the gas giant to always hit the intended targets. Plus my idea of the fueling station would satisfy not just one planet, but any planet in the system that required fuel. That's why there will be multiple sizes of tanks. The booster craft will be able to boost 50k - 100k Dtons by theirself (yes, big engines), but for larger tanks, they'll pair up (or triple, or quad up) and boost it that way. A very busy station is going to need a LOT of fuel, and 100Dtons every 8hrs may or may not be sufficient for all their needs. So they may need much larger tanks to ensure they have plenty of fuel available. Plus the primary world could consome 100k Dtons of fuel every day, while smaller stations might only require that much fuel every month. So I figure the existing system allows the maximum flexibility for all scenarios. The drawback being that it may take 20-30 days to get where its going... so interruptions can be annoying.

Given that a station processor can process 500tons per day and that the system may also have delays due to large volumes of shipping, let alone the planetary needs, I think you may want (on reflection) to up your quantities by a factor of 10. I suspect that you'll be wanting lots of larger pods/barges (I tend to use "Pod" because it's a sealed unit, whereas a "barge" is traditionally open, but either works).

If you don't mind, I'll add this one to my file of "interesting ideas for a system to make it unique"...

Sure! I'll post the final one and you (and anyone else) is free to snag that as well.

Thanks!

One last thought - you'll want (in case you hadn't considered it) drone beacon ships that operate on beamed updates so that visiting craft don't enter the system's "Red Zone" where pods will be travelling. This won't stop the occasional ship from breaking down and drifting into it though. You might also want an "Amber Zone" where pods may be at any given time of the year to prevent some Free Trader from parking an unregistered cargo container or ship where a pod may hit it later on. Not really much of a bother to you, but might add additional "colour" to the system.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

To be honest, guys, you have to remember that the Starports book already says that the majority of starports are run by the Star Ports Authority, a part of the Imperial Beaurocracy, not the locals. Therefore, all the claims of them needing to be competitive have no basis... since the prices are already subsidised. A private port would probably need to charge a fee to help cover the costs of running and maintaining the port and an independant port would probably be taxed as an extra source of planetary income, including fuel.

The SPA will sub-contract a lot of services, which will compete. If the services, e.g. fuel are over price in the official starport, local planets will start competing and lowering the price of refined fuel, but I think we have been round different ideas of "market" several times already. In regard to private ports, independant ports etc they already charge, the docking fee, plus the fees to those who run concessions (from burger stands to space craft maintenance), handling fees for cargo etc (by the by, I think it would be fair to assume that the berthing fees increase with the size of the vessel, perhaps per 1000dton of the craft in the port area, otherwise the 100K super freighter is being charged the same a the Free Trader).

Having gone back throught the maths on this, I still cannot see any justification for 500Cr/ton refined, other than it being the biggest galactic con of the 3I :lol:

The actual price (assuming the constant 100Cr for unrefined, which is a little bit shakey for the various reasons mentioned in posts above) looks like 108Cr-150Cr, depending on how generous you are with assumptions about cost of labour, how much continuous use etc, and still allowing for an additional tax take.

I think we have reached the MTU vs YTU point, I am going with the high, 150Cr, cost per ton (but not the 500Cr extortionate cost) to allow a cross subsidy to starports that struggle to obtain fuel, and a high tax mark up. Something else for MTU is the use of unrefined fuel, it will be slightly less good for normal uses, requiring a 2d6 roll every week if used to run a starship power point, a 2 indicates one power plant "hit" (repairable, but potentially an expensive nuisance), so most in system craft will use refined as well.

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Incidently, according to the Starports book: Independant starports who are around or on hot or cold planets would need to charge 5-50% more for fuel. Frozen or Roasting planets pretty much have to ship in fuel from elsewhere, if there's a Gas Giant, then it's 5-10% more... if not, then they need to ship it in from outside the system, charging 50-100% more.

Yes, I think there is some ideas to play with here, though not convinced about the "frozen" worlds (surely they already have water, its just in solid form).

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

For MTU I came up with what I think seems to be a simple and elegant solution to fuel. At the local gas giant you have a a collection station with smaller tanker craft that do nothing but skim raw fuel and bring it back to the collection station. Then when enough fuel is collected it's loaded into large barges (for lack of a better term). Booster craft then connect to the barge and begin a ballistic trajectory. It's then boosted for about 8-10hrs and then released to drift to the target. During the ballistic trip the hydrogen is typically refined in transit (or not, depending on the needs). The barge is equipped with basic thrusters utilizing the onboard hydrogen as fuel, as well as basic navigation equipment to warn other ships of its trajectory.

At the receiving point its met by booster craft about 12hrs out from the target. They dock, and then fire their engines and bring it to the station that needs the fuel. The fuel is off-loaded, and then the booster ships send the tank back towards the collection station to be reloaded.

With a system like this you are going to constantly have fuel barges in transit. Since its relatively cheap to build fuel tanks in orbit, there's typically going to be a large reserve available due to the 30-45 day transit time for each tank. But once the system gets up and running, keeping up with demand should not be an issue at all. And it should be cheaper to drop ship fuel in such a manner instead of going down into the gravity well of a planet to collect it.

This sort of concept works for systems that don't have gas giants too. Except now the gathering stations would have to be located wherever hydrogen is available, even as far as the oort cloud. Though it may take years before the first fuel shipments start due to vast distances.

I've been meaning to actually put pen to paper and get the designs of all this, just haven't done that yet.

:lol: :lol:

Yes, in MTU I work on the same sort of idea, in high tech and secure systems, though the fuel is usually refined in flignt, the fuel barges are pushed off by a tug at one end, collected and slowed down by another at the other end. Typically the barge is unmanned and the process automated.

Egil

 

[BFalcon]

I, personally, don't see them subcontracting to the locals except where raw materials are competitively priced. Where goods are brought into the port from the planet, they'd immediately be hit with import taxes - they're entering Imperial territory, after all. The profits would also be taxed (and the tax rates in Merchant Prince are pretty steep too... so I'd expect them to apply to fuel sales too).

I'd also expect the supplier to want their cut of the profits and for the SPA to want to subsidise the fuel supply to less fuel-rich systems to a degree (the SPA would be at an advantage though in that their sales may be tax-free, being an Imperial agency. They may also want to subsidise sales and services to the Navy and Scout service (especially the latter, given the SPA's roots).

If anything (and partly to keep the players having to think) I'd up the price of unrefined, keep the refined at 500, not allow power plants to be run in the ports except when arriving or departing (citing health and safety issues - not least all that heat being generated by the ships may make it unhealthy outside) and, finally, make on-planet refuelling variably illegal or taxed depending on the local law level and the response appropriate to the TL (ie a low TL planet that is isolationist may not be able to shoot down the spacecraft, but the high TL planet that wants to tax you to hell and back certainly can (and will since it's their law, not the 3Is in their own orbit*). That would make them either think about whether or not they (think that they) could get away with surface fuel-grabbing, Gas Giant skimming or just pay the 500. A random system generator would be the ideal tool there so the Gas Giant orbits were both known and varied from system to system.

I think you may be right about the OTU/MTU/YTU thing though...

* Except where the Highport has control... in which case it's waiting lanes may be under dual or 3I control.

 

[BFalcon]

Incidently, according to the Starports book: Independant starports who are around or on hot or cold planets would need to charge 5-50% more for fuel. Frozen or Roasting planets pretty much have to ship in fuel from elsewhere, if there's a Gas Giant, then it's 5-10% more... if not, then they need to ship it in from outside the system, charging 50-100% more.

Yes, I think there is some ideas to play with here, though not convinced about the "frozen" worlds (surely they already have water, its just in solid form).

Egil

As I said above, I think it's more the problems with seizing up equipment and having to dig up the ice - a Frozen planet may have an average temperature of -100 degrees C or less, making it potentially lethal to be outside any more than you have to be anyhow. I agree that if it's so easy to make hydrogen, that the benefits from refining and then using laser cutters would be a good idea, but then I thought of this bombshell... if Frozen planets are so cold, it may not be water that is on the surface... but something else, in which case getting at the fuel sources on the planet may be a lot more trouble than it's worth. Triton, for example, is just 38 degrees Kelvin (-235C approx) and has a liquid nitrogen, dry ice (frozen CO2) and water composition, with a CO/nitrogen/ammonia atmosphere... making any hydrogen source a little hard to get to (chances are any colonists would be in orbit in such a case).

 

[DFW]

with a CO/nitrogen/ammonia atmosphere... making any hydrogen source a little hard to get to (chances are any colonists would be in orbit in such a case).

Perfect. No need to land. Just scoop the atmosphere for fuel.

 

[BFalcon]

DFW: ssh you... I was hoping nobody would think of that after I posted... :lol:

I think that the atmosphere may have hydrogen at too low levels for it to be worthwhile though...

I think you need to ask yourself if it's worth digging up or mining (somehow) the hydrogen or if it's just easier to plunder the water planet the next system over...

(rust: Just going to drop by your planet with a 200,000 dt Megatanker and a fuel scoop for a few minutes - hope you don't mind... :lol

 

[DFW]

The more I think about it the less I think that Cr500/ton for refined is out of line. That's 14,000 liters of refined fuel. That's only Cr. 0.03 a liter.

 

[BFalcon]

The more I think about it the less I think that Cr500/ton for refined is out of line. That's 14,000 liters of refined fuel. That's only Cr. 0.03 a liter.

:lol:
If they charged that for fuel over here, there'd be a riot before they could change their mind...

Seriously, though, I don't think it's too bad - until you get to high-end ships, but then if you've got 50,000dt of cargo, worth a possible average of 500 MCr (assuming 10,000 per dt) per run, you'd hardly worry about spending a mere 17MCr per run on fuel (especially when it's jump-3 so a 3-parsec run will take only a week (+ the 100d run time)).

 

[DFW]

The more I think about it the less I think that Cr500/ton for refined is out of line. That's 14,000 liters of refined fuel. That's only Cr. 0.03 a liter.

:lol:
If they charged that for fuel over here, there'd be a riot before they could change their mind...

Haven't been over your way for a couple of years. What's the current price? Ours (In California) is approaching 1 USD/litre.

 

[atpollard]

The more I think about it the less I think that Cr500/ton for refined is out of line. That's 14,000 liters of refined fuel. That's only Cr. 0.03 a liter.

I love it! I never viewed it like that.

Of course Hydrogen to so 'fluffy' that you would be lucky to get 1 km per liter out of it (internal combustion) and the 450 liter tank would really cut into the trunk room.

 

[BFalcon]

Haven't been over your way for a couple of years. What's the current price? Ours (In California) is approaching 1 USD/litre.

Around £1.40 per litre last I looked (around $2.25) per litre... but around 70% (maybe more) I think is taxes...

 

[rust]

Haven't been over your way for a couple of years. What's the current price? Ours (In California) is approaching 1 USD/litre.

Around £1.40 per litre last I looked (around $2.25) per litre... but around 70% (maybe more) I think is taxes...

Similar here, around 1.55 Euro (ca. 2.17 USD) per liter, most of it
is a collection of various taxes, including taxes on taxes (VAT).
The oil would be about 0.55 Euro per liter.

 

[DFW]

The more I think about it the less I think that Cr500/ton for refined is out of line. That's 14,000 liters of refined fuel. That's only Cr. 0.03 a liter.

I love it! I never viewed it like that.

Of course Hydrogen to so 'fluffy' that you would be lucky to get 1 km per liter out of it (internal combustion) and the 450 liter tank would really cut into the trunk room.

L-hyd needs about 4 times the volume for a given amount of energy than gasoline. Of course that is for "burning" not, fusion. So, an auto would require 4X the fuel tankage for L-hyd over gasoline.

 

[rust]

Talking about hydrogen as fuel, there is an interesting experimental
process which stores hydrogen as Perhydro-N-Ethylcarbazol in liquid
form. When heated to about 100° Celsius the Perhydro-N-Ethylcarba-
zol releases the hydrogen, which can then be used as fuel, while the
remaining N-Ethylcarbazol can be reused by hydrating it again into
the Perhydro-N-Ethylcarbazol. The energy density is ca. 2,000 kWh
per cubic meter, a little less than LHyd's 2,360 kWh per cubic meter,
but it requires neither cooling nor pressure tanks.

 

[BFalcon]

rust: Interesting, so you'd presumably need a pre-heating tank in a system to evaporate off the hydrogen before pumping the fluid into a reserve tank and pumping the hydrogen into either in internal combustion engine or fusion generator. I say a preheat tank because I'm guessing that you'd not want to over-heat the liquid by too much in case you destabilise it?

 

[rust]

rust: Interesting, so you'd presumably need a pre-heating tank in a system to evaporate off the hydrogen before pumping the fluid into a reserve tank and pumping the hydrogen into either in internal combustion engine or fusion generator. I say a preheat tank because I'm guessing that you'd not want to over-heat the liquid by too much in case you destabilise it?

The idea the engineers are working on is that you only heat
enough of the liquid to get enough hydrogen to start the en-
gine and run it for a short time, because afterwards the was-
te heat from the engine is used to heat the remaining liquid.
However, I do not know the details of the system, only that
several car manufacturers are working on one.

I am not sure that overheating would have any dire conse-
quences, as I understand it (and chemistry is not my friend)
the remaining "dehydrogenated" substance is more or less
inert.

 

[BFalcon]

Cool...

Sounds a bit like diesel... if I recall, that needs to be heated initially until it has generated enough of its own heat to maintain the engine on its own.

And yeah, I had intended the preheat chamber to be heated both by a coil and by the exit exhaust of the engine, since it's the most logical way of doing it... no point in wasting the heat, after all...

Sounds like a hybrid using that and electricity would be a *very* nice car to run... especially when someone gets fusion working (DFW, stop slacking already!! We need it done ASAP!!! ).

 

[rust]

Sounds like a hybrid using that and electricity would be a *very* nice car to run... especially when someone gets fusion working (DFW, stop slacking already!! We need it done ASAP!!! ).

It seems the main advantage they have in mind is that the current
network of gas stations could be used for this fuel without too many
changes, while normal hydrogen cars would need a completely new
logistics infrastructure. Currently many cities over here have one or
two hydrogen stations, but it is impossible to drive from one such
city to another, because there are no hydrogen stations in the towns
and villages along the route. As a result the local public transport of-
ten uses hydrogen engines, but private cars with hydrogen engines
are about as common as aircraft carriers.