why do Barbarians in Conan get the shaft?

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Anonymous

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now that I have your attention...lol

Actually I was wondering why for several feats in the rulebook such as Improved Critical the Barbarian gets penalized(the seven level restriction)?
Was this for game balance or just to make it so not everyone would want to take Barbarian as a character class?
 
Becaue the barbarian already has class abilities (versitility) that duplicate the effect of that feat.
 
Crimson mist? I haven't run my game yet, but did anybody find Crimson mist not so usefull? The ability is cool, but how often does a character have a chance to use it. That added to the fact that after you see a horror for the first time your no longer effected by it's fear. So Bob the barbarian can use it the first time he attacks ape men, but the second encounter he can't. I was thinking of changing it to another use of Fighting maddness, like Barbarians can start out with two "Rages" a day. I know all of my players would not like an ability as cool as Crimson mist and not be able to use it.
 
Erebus said:
Crimson mist? I haven't run my game yet, but did anybody find Crimson mist not so usefull?

The barbarians in my campaigns seem be able to use it quite a bit. I don't recycle monsters all that often, however. Those that wanted to use it more often just took the Fighting Madness feat.
 
ok so at fourteenth level they get increased threat range....thats great but shouldn't the rules simply say something like the barbarians increased threat range doesn't stack with the improved critical feat? The barabarian is left spinning in the wind from levels seven to fourteen on that feat at least. Also there are at least two other feats that the barbarian class gets restricted from. Why would someone who plays in 3.5 DanD with a barbarian character using those rules ever want to convert? Seems like they are giving up a lot....the rage ability always turned "on"meaning that it doesnt matter who they use it against....the damage reduction at earlier levels, the hit die and so on. Just food for thought...So far I do like the flavor of the ConanRpg(being a huge Conan and Howard fan myself).
 
For the appropriate flavour, one must sometimes give up stuff. The DnD Barbarian is balanced for DnD.

Keep in mind, the Conan RPG barbarian is automatically proficent with two weapon fighting, whereas the DnD barbarian is not. The Conan RPG barbarian has more class skills (skills are more important in an avg. game of Conan than in DnD), mobility (essential when faced with the fantastic change of how five foot step works in Conan), Track, Endurance and a better Reflex save than DnD barbarians (which gives rise to a MUCH improved initiative than DnD barbarians). He gets abilities like Unconquerable and Wheel of Death. He also gets Fate Points. If the character has Barbarian as a favoured class, then he gets up to three bonus feats by 10th level. Also, at 6th level, and every four thereafter, the character gets a boost to ALL of his stats.

You gain a lot with the Conan RPG barbarian, and it is balanced for the way things work in Conan the Role Playing Game. The only thing the DnD barbarian has over the Conan barbarian is a larger HD, and Rage.

Of course, if Rage is what defines a barbarian for you, then take the Fighting Madness feat. You could easily house-rule that if the feat is taken multiple times, then each time allows another use per day. Burn up your favoured class bonus feats to get that three times per day by 10th level. Honestly, though, with all the other advantages the barbarian has, such a house rule is probably unnecessary.
 
IN Conan, Barb is the powergamers' class of choice -- He's a killing machine, especially with a fine blend feats and Favored Class -- the mobility chain that is available to them is a boone beyond anything that D&D provides: Full movement AND full attack!

I've got a Barb multiclassed with Pirate that can wreck someone's day. Barbs lack nothing in Conan.

Versatility is an amazing addition too. I love that I can pick up practically anything and bash someone's head with it.

Crimson Mist and Fighting Madness are both use with impunity by the way.
 
Heh. In my group there have only been four characters that are NOT barbarians out of the eight pc's that have played in the group. Two of those were scholars, one nomad and one noble. I am really looking forward to playing a barbarian whenever we have room for one (After my nomad got politicked out of play I picked up a chaga scholar *grins*).

At any rate, only two of the barbs have actually bought the Fighting-Madness feat, but they still rage quite often, lots of sorcerous enemies, monsters and demons to go against, so if you are staying with the conan theme, your players shouldn't have to worry too much.

Later!
 
Barbarians do not get the shaft. That’s crazy talk.
Here are a bunch of things they get that make the class close to broken.
At level 10 the Barbarian never provokes an AOO. How many feats say "you can perform action A without provoking an AOO". Well at level 10 the barbarian has all of them. Granted most of those feats give a +4 to things like grapple or trip. But still, this is a very powerful ability.

By level 7, barbs get versatility( no penalty) In effect, Barbarians have exotic weapon proficiency "everything". How many feats is that? Not only that, but crit. range with every weapon is tripled (at level 20).
That amounts to a feat chain granted for every weapon, from a silver bench to a broad sword.
How about the ability to move and attack in any order they see fit (level 15). (move 10 feet attack once, move 5 more feet attack again, and then move 15 feet and use the last two attacks). This can be done through any number of threatened squares, because, remember, after level 10 the barb never provokes on AOO.
These make the barb so powerful at high levels. No need for any unarmed combat feats as long as you can find a rock or a branch or a bench. Remember no AOO's after level 10. Automatic proficiency with everything. Increased crit. range for everything. Tripled at level 20. Doubled at level 14.
How many feats does a soldier need to get all of these benefits. I don't have time to add it up. But it's a lot.
A less obvious advantage: No race without barb as a favored class has access to the fighting madness feat. This means if a soldier wants it, they have to sacrifice 3 feats. Fighting madness is very powerful.

And let's not forget the fact that they get 2 good saves.
A good ref. save helps init, which is so critical with a 20 HP death from massive damage threshold. Hit first, kill first.
Let's not forget the fact that they get a whole rack of special abilities to top all of this off. Here are the ones off the top of my head. I’m sure I’m forgetting some. Track , endurance, unconquerable, bonus vs. traps, DR (which balances out the barbarians tendency to use lighter armor).
The only disadvantage I can think of is the fact that the barb, like the soldier, has str. as the primary ability. This means that their DV will be lower, as they are a dodge class. Still if a soldier wants to improve their parry DV with a shield they must give up 2 handed weapons. And at high levels that 1.5 strength bonus can lead to massive damage that can kill in one hit.
I could go on, but I don’t think I have to.
REH wrote about a barbarian. This game is based on those stories. If barbs are weak than what class isn't?
They don’t get shafted.
[/b]
 
For all that everyone has said (with which I fully agree), I still think Mr. Rubbs made a good point: Why should the barbarian lose an ability for seven levels? It does seem to make more sense to just say that Versatility doesn't stack with Improved Critical. Doesn't it?
 
your points are well taken....if you get to start out at tenth!!!But remember in this kind of campaign setting to even survive first level is a challenge for any character much less the barbarian especially with the death from massive damage at twenty( which we never played with in the original rules)....all I was really saying is that instead of forbidding any feats they should just simply say in the rulebook something like "the blank feat(your choice) will not stack with the barbarians ability after level seven or whenever its relevant." Its not even close to broken and if it is what kind of game company comes up with a character class that so fits the REH stories and then wrecks it? Where would the sense of that be?...if you wanna talk broken lets chat about the sorceror....LAME....cast spells....pay heavy tolls(corruption/insanity) wooohoo sign me up!!
 
1. Those feats are hardly important to a barbarian of high level.
2. The rule encourages barbarians with those feats to multiclass into something else to not lose the feats.
3. The rule emphasises an important aspect to the game: Howard did not have Conan run around with one type of weapon that he could use well. He could use them all well. The rule discourages people from taking feats that limit their barbarians to focusing on just one weapon. It is a flavour issue. If you don't care for that flavour, then remove the restriction in your games.
 
1. Agreed
2. You wouldn't get to keep the feat if you were multiclassed in something else.
3. Good point.


As for sorcerors, Rubbs, they ain't broke. The design of the class and magic system are an excellent match for the vibe of the stories. Most sorcerors really were evil, or on the road there. And what few who weren't (how many?), must not have made pacts with demons 'n' such.

Just because you wouldn't want to play a sorceror in ConanRPG, doesn't mean there's anything broken about the class.
 
Coroleer said:
2. You wouldn't get to keep the feat if you were multiclassed in something else.

Why not? Those feats say, 'If a character with this feat ever gains seven or more levels in the barbarian class, he immediately and permanently loses this feat'. So a 6th level Barbarian/4th level Pirate/3rd level Nomad with Weapon Focus (broadsword) gets to keep the feat, so long as he doesn't take another level in Barbarian.
 
Anonymous said:
Barbarians do not get the shaft. That’s crazy talk.
Here are a bunch of things they get that make the class close to broken.
At level 10 the Barbarian never provokes an AOO. How many feats say "you can perform action A without provoking an AOO". Well at level 10 the barbarian has all of them. Granted most of those feats give a +4 to things like grapple or trip. But still, this is a very powerful ability.

By level 7, barbs get versatility( no penalty) In effect, Barbarians have exotic weapon proficiency "everything". How many feats is that? Not only that, but crit. range with every weapon is tripled (at level 20).
That amounts to a feat chain granted for every weapon, from a silver bench to a broad sword.
How about the ability to move and attack in any order they see fit (level 15). (move 10 feet attack once, move 5 more feet attack again, and then move 15 feet and use the last two attacks). This can be done through any number of threatened squares, because, remember, after level 10 the barb never provokes on AOO.
These make the barb so powerful at high levels. No need for any unarmed combat feats as long as you can find a rock or a branch or a bench. Remember no AOO's after level 10. Automatic proficiency with everything. Increased crit. range for everything. Tripled at level 20. Doubled at level 14.
How many feats does a soldier need to get all of these benefits. I don't have time to add it up. But it's a lot.
A less obvious advantage: No race without barb as a favored class has access to the fighting madness feat. This means if a soldier wants it, they have to sacrifice 3 feats. Fighting madness is very powerful.

And let's not forget the fact that they get 2 good saves.
A good ref. save helps init, which is so critical with a 20 HP death from massive damage threshold. Hit first, kill first.
Let's not forget the fact that they get a whole rack of special abilities to top all of this off. Here are the ones off the top of my head. I’m sure I’m forgetting some. Track , endurance, unconquerable, bonus vs. traps, DR (which balances out the barbarians tendency to use lighter armor).
The only disadvantage I can think of is the fact that the barb, like the soldier, has str. as the primary ability. This means that their DV will be lower, as they are a dodge class. Still if a soldier wants to improve their parry DV with a shield they must give up 2 handed weapons. And at high levels that 1.5 strength bonus can lead to massive damage that can kill in one hit.
I could go on, but I don’t think I have to.
REH wrote about a barbarian. This game is based on those stories. If barbs are weak than what class isn't?
They don’t get shafted.
[/b]

I appeciate your feedback. A couple good points have been made. One in particular; the barbarian, after level 7, cannot have weapon focus. Ouch!!
But still, barbarians are very powerfulel fighters. And they have a nice mix of class abilities. I still think they are better than soldiers. But that's just my opinion.
 
VincentDarlage said:
Coroleer said:
2. You wouldn't get to keep the feat if you were multiclassed in something else.

Why not? Those feats say, 'If a character with this feat ever gains seven or more levels in the barbarian class, he immediately and permanently loses this feat'. So a 6th level Barbarian/4th level Pirate/3rd level Nomad with Weapon Focus (broadsword) gets to keep the feat, so long as he doesn't take another level in Barbarian.

Why not? Because I misunderstood what you were saying, of course! :)
 
This in interesting. *bump*
So essentially, a Barbarian is kept from specializing in any weapon type. It may also be a balance issue, because they get all these other boons like full Exotic proficiency and such. You're "specialized in versatility", so to speak.

So the "7 levels" threshold is not directed at full Barb characters - you just don't waste a feat like that. It's for multiclassing chars. On the one hand, you are permitted to "sniff in" the Bbn class without being penalized, but on the other hand, you are kept from powergaming all too much.

But look at it that way: the Improved Crit chain really ain't that great. At least it wasn't in 3E rules, so I don't know for sure how it works in Conan. But here's what I'm thinking:

A sword gives you a 10% chance of scoring a threat. With extended threat ranges, this expands to 20% or 30%, respectively. However. To score a threat, you first need to connect. If your opponent has a high DV/AC, you may find that the first half of your threat range is useless, because you just don't hit the bugger on a 16.

As I said, this is true for many D&D games, where you fight monsters with insane ACs, and can be lucky if you don't need a natural 20 to hit anyway.

DVs might not get as high in Conan, so if that's the case, basically you hit at lower rolls, and can benefit from the wider threat range. BUT an angry barbarian between levels 7 and 14 also has a good chance of scoring massive damage hits even without critting.

Be that as it may - you may find it a nuisance not being able to specialize in certain weapons. Maybe you can find a way around it, like getting your DM to make a house rule. Or you could get used to the idea, and just use your feat slots for other stuff. ;)

Personally, I must say that the Barbarian in Conan is very much to my liking. As a player, I've always been paranoid about not being able to use specialized feats or equipment. Think about it - you get all the feats for the Bastard Sword, from Focus to Improved Critical, and then the GM makes you lose your prized sword and lets you find a battle axe instead. Big wailing and gnashing of teeth. Not gonna happen with the Conan Bbn. :)
 
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