Why are Anagathics Illegal?

[Captain Jonah]

A thought that cropped up while the expensive ships thread wandered off onto pensions and so on.

Why are anagathics either illegal or frowned on in the Imperium.
From a game point of view having too many terms leads to loads of skills which is an entire other point to talk about. My question relates to the IC reasons. It costs money so the rich are the ones to be using it but why is it considered a bad thing to have nobles and merchant princes living for hundreds of years.
Soldiers in the peak of fitness but with 10 or 20 terms of experience behind them. Scientists/technicians/engineers who have been working thier field for many many years.
Leaving aside the 1970s outlook on aging and medicine (50% of people born this year are expected to reach the year 2100 and medicines now or being developed to enhance the quality of that extra life) Why does the Imperium go with the three score and five and your dead attitude.
Its not like population growth would be a problem with all those underpopulated planets out there. More people, bigger market, more trade (yes I know its more complex than that, its late)
The Honorverse has people living extended lives through prolong, other sci fi also deals with this subject. Heirs stuck waiting for the old codger to die when he is happily going to live another 100 years etc.
So anyway ideas please, why is the Imperium anti anagathics.
Oh and no one say because its cannon

 

[rust]

I am not aware that anagathics would be illegal in the Imperium in gene-
ral, and according to the Law Level table they are perfectly legal up to
Law Level 4.

One reason to make anagathics illegal could be an attempt to suppress
the criminal activities connected with the trade: Fake anagathics that turn
out to be poisonous, extinction of endangered species because their body
parts are considered anagathics, and all that.

 

[Charakan]

I suspect its a fudge to prevent us all having 200 year old+ characters with gun combat -96 (or whatever).

 

[alex_greene]

Agreed. It's game balance nerfing preventing player characters from racking up the terms and having mondo skills.

Another arbitrary piece of nerfing added to offset the threat of minmaxers. However, anyone with any kind of experience will realise that the perceived threat of minmaxing is often far greater than its actual incidence.

 

[Charakan]

Got to say I agree with you Alex about Min/Maxers, I've come across one in nearly 30 years of playing RPGs and that was a game I ran in a shop. But then again I've mostly played with friends.

 

[far-trader]

They are illegal to the extent they are to keep prices artificially inflated, to limit their access to the ones who make the laws, so they are the ones who can afford them

 

[MarkB]

I vote "ancient conspiracy". Some of the more shadowy figures in power, who have already secured themselves a reliable supply of life-extension technologies, would rather not have the general population living for hundreds of years. After all, if people hung around that long, they might start to notice how some trends and coincidences don't seem quite so random or accidental when viewed over the long term.

 

[Charakan]

Sorry didn't read enough of the original post and now realise the OP had already addressed the game balance Issues .

I have to agree its a plot by those who have access to life prolonging technology to keep it to those who can really afford it and for Imperial Intelligence to finance black budget operations by dealing in high grade anagathics.

Really this is one of the reasons I'm beginning to find the 3I a bit limiting these days, the way canon has to shoehorn in fixes for the limitations of the original game (i.e. the Shudusham (sp?) accords to limit robotics, the Psionic suppressions, etc).

 

[Galadrion]

Hm... I've never really gone with them being illegal, exactly. Expensive, yes - how much would an extra number of years be, were you able to buy them? Highly regulated, of course - you're talking about some very expensive, very highly-demanded metabolism-altering pharmaceuticals, after all. Risky... well, what part of metabolism-altering did you miss? And supply is probably not going to be anywhere near enough to significantly reduce the price. But illegal? Why?

I could see them being outlawed locally, on a planetary scale. A society obsessed with equality of access, for example, might hold that there is too much inherent injustice in a Fountain of Youth which is only available to the uber-elite and hyper-wealthy, and therefore decide to simply ban them for everyone. But because of the way the legal system in the Imperium is designed, such a ban would only apply on the hypothetical planet in question, not elsewhere.

No, my view has always been that the primary restrictions on anagathics have been - and should be - economic rather than legislative. Furthermore, I've been noodling the ideas around of expanding the options in this regard, making anagathics available at a lower tech level (I'm thinking 10 or thereabouts) and then adding some different treatments at later levels, such as varying versions of an Elizabeth Moon-style rejuvenation treatment. (The later variations will become progressively more expensive... but also more effective. They will also be mutually incompatible, so there are going to be some trade-offs...)

 

[justacaveman]

IMTU I've already doubled the lifespans (No aging crisis until age 68 ). So I don't have any problems with the Anagathic prices.

I do limit the PC's to 5 terms however, I don't need a bunch of super characters running around my game.

IMTU mandatory retirement age in the Marines is 84. This would be the equivalent of a 42 year old now.

There is no real reason for people in the Imperium to start going downhill at 34. With some of the medical technologies we're developing now, I'm expecting human lifespans to be at least double by the end of the century.

 

[rust]

In Chaosium's Ringworld RPG one could play characters up to 400 years
old, with up to 16 previous pursuits (= careers) and 20 occupation points
(= skill percentile points) for each year in a pursuit. This produced charac-
ters with a total of up to 7,660 occupation points beyond their basic educa-
tion - enough to have 75+ skills at 100 %.

However, I have seen only very few players who ever wanted to play that
kind of character, and it was not really difficult to create roleplaying chal-
lenges even for those methusalems - one only had to shift the focus of
the game away from problems that could be solved with skill rolls alone.

One of my previous settings was based upon the Honorverse, and after
my experiences with the Ringworld game I allowed very old and highly
skilled characters for the Traveller system (Classic Traveller with house-
rules at the time). They probably influenced the style of the game, but
they did not in any way break the system.

So, no problems with anagathics for me, provided they make sense with-
in the assumptions of the setting. In my view "super technology" is more
likely to cause serious problems than "super skills".

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Its not like population growth would be a problem with all those underpopulated planets out there. More people, bigger market, more trade (yes I know its more complex than that, its late)

You are assuming (perhaps rightly) that people would want to move away from those TL13+ high population worlds. Low pop planets are often scantily inhabited for a reason, one which may make it less than pleasing to somebody of extended age. Thus anagathics might actually cause population problems on high pop worlds if they are the most desirable places to live.

Another suggestion is that anagathics are complex molecules which cannot be artificially synthesised, and must be extracted from a morally questionable source, an endangered alien species or extracted from pre-adolescents.

Maybe Imperial scientists have detected a gradual increase in psychosis and senility amongst long term users of anagathics and are now scrambling to suppress the drug before the rot sets in amongst key areas of society? Taking it in the other direction, maybe anagathics cause the taker to suffer hormonal rushes, turning mature folks in important positions into irrational teenagers - not wise for an Admiral in charge of a fleet posted to the Zhodani border.

Or perhaps anagathics cause sterility, so only those beyond a certain age are permitted to take them for fear of population crash?

Continuing with the Zhodani angle, how about this... Anagathics are actually produced by the Consulate and make takers more susceptible to psionic control.

 

[Cleon the Mad]

Its not like population growth would be a problem with all those underpopulated planets out there. More people, bigger market, more trade (yes I know its more complex than that, its late)

You are assuming (perhaps rightly) that people would want to move away from those TL13+ high population worlds. Low pop planets are often scantily inhabited for a reason, one which may make it less than pleasing to somebody of extended age. Thus anagathics might actually cause population problems on high pop worlds if they are the most desirable places to live.

Another suggestion is that anagathics are complex molecules which cannot be artificially synthesised, and must be extracted from a morally questionable source, an endangered alien species or extracted from pre-adolescents.

Maybe Imperial scientists have detected a gradual increase in psychosis and senility amongst long term users of anagathics and are now scrambling to suppress the drug before the rot sets in amongst key areas of society? Taking it in the other direction, maybe anagathics cause the taker to suffer hormonal rushes, turning mature folks in important positions into irrational teenagers - not wise for an Admiral in charge of a fleet posted to the Zhodani border.

Or perhaps anagathics cause sterility, so only those beyond a certain age are permitted to take them for fear of population crash?

Continuing with the Zhodani angle, how about this... Anagathics are actually produced by the Consulate and make takers more susceptible to psionic control.

An idea I had also is well, Anagathics are expensive. And thus generally speaking only the wealthy can afford them. Someone of more modest means either does without, or has to go deeply into debt to get them. It could be they are frowned upon since it's seen as something only the wealthy and nobles can have, and it makes it seem like they are cheating death while the common man is forced to age and die. I could see nobles who do use them maybe not keeping it truly secret, but at least not exactly bragging about it lest their subjects (assuming a noble who rules and doesn't just have a title) react strongly. On the other side of the coin, a socialite who could care less about the responsiblities that come with a noble title and/or great wealth might flaunt it just because they are wealthy and thus can afford something the common man usually can't.

As an aside, I don't run anagathics as illegal as much as controlled. One doesn't just go into a local pharmacy on a high tech world and buy them over the counter, or even just get them with a simple doctor's prescription. Even on a low law level world, there's at least some notable red tape to get them.

 

[Vile]

I agree that financial restriction makes more sense, but taking the questionable legality (LL4 or below) of anagathics as given, the only reason I can see is that they must be inherently dangerous or at least unsafe. In a capitalist society they would never be illegal just because they were "frowned upon", because everyone wants to be immortal and the rich and powerful more so (look at royalty of old). So there must be something actually wrong with the stuff, either in its effects on users or in its method of production (harvesting ingredients from living humans?).

Its not like population growth would be a problem with all those underpopulated planets out there.

Low pop planets are often scantily inhabited for a reason, one which may make it less than pleasing to somebody of extended age.

In the OTU, that reason usually being the standard gravity, breathable air and pleasant climate. In the OTU we like to live on poisonous frozen low-gravity hell holes! :twisted:

 

[Mongoose Pete]

In the OTU, that reason usually being the standard gravity, breathable air and pleasant climate. In the OTU we like to live on poisonous frozen low-gravity hell holes! :twisted:

Yep, most civilised folk know that nature is dangerous! Best to stay nice and safe in sterile arcologies where nature cannot get at you... :roll: :wink:

 

[Captain Jonah]

So we have nasty method of creating the stuff, extract of living human ala B5 the Dilgar lady.
We have its all an Imperial plot.
We have its all A Zhodani plot.
Its a Secret Cabal that rules behind the throne.
Its a bunch of merchants and nobles keeping the price high.
Side effects. Mostly with the back alley lab stuff not the Megacorp made stuff.

Population fall due to sterility etc. Not a problem when it is in limited use and anyway the Imperium can make true sons and daughters if you have the cash and want to continue the family line.
Moving all those old folk off the high tech high population worlds to empty worlds, just because that backwards world with 1000 people on it is tech 8 will not stop someone setting up a retirement city or three for the old weathy folk and the worlds tech level and pop raises rapidly.

As an aside. What are the limits people have for characters skills, ranks etc. The promotion system is out of wack with longer lived characters. It is far too easy to reach silly rank Admiral/duke etc after a few good rolls.
Higher ranks, above colonel/captain/Knight etc should be out of reach or dice rolls regardless of how many terms you serve. Refs discretion as normal.
Skill limits, what do people use. With skill 0 negating all penalty and being easy to gain characters become living jack of all trades very quickly. A character with 10 skills at level 2 and 5 at level 3 is capable but hardly immortal, 20 skill level 4s is going to be hard to challenge depending on where those skills are. With access to reduced aging by whatever means players can run 10+ term characters, limited by the rolls to continue in a career which will tend to kick people out of a job after too long.
What age do jobs become unavailable to characters forcing them into adventuring or retirement?
Currently 65 is the common age where no one will hire you and in many careers 50+, you don't join the armed forces after 30 etc.
Ideas, comments, postcards.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Moving all those old folk off the high tech high population worlds to empty worlds, just because that backwards world with 1000 people on it is tech 8 will not stop someone setting up a retirement city or three for the old weathy folk and the worlds tech level and pop raises rapidly.

Quite possibly.

Here's another perspective. Why would a physiologically rejuvenated geriatric want to leave their home, family and social circle to settle in an off-world OAP home? Since anagathics seem to percolate down from the rich and powerful strata of society I can't see wealthy users accepting deportation. Making space by deporting young folk instead may result in eventual civil strife.

In fact since increasing conservatism appears to be an aspect of human ageing, a gradual strain on social dynamics may occur on worlds where geriatrics remain in power and control the majority of wealth - perhaps this might explain why the Imperium seems to be stagnating at TL15. Younger echelons of the Imperial Bureaucracy may be aware of an approaching collapse but are powerless to directly ban anagathics, instead trying to discourage their use in other ways. :twisted:

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I guess I took a slightly different approach to Anagathics in my game.

First, remember that it is TL15 technology. So it will be only on a few planets that you can even MAKE this stuff.

So it is more about price and availability than legality. Also, WHY would a TL 15 world that can make all of its citizens immortal export that stuff. Money starts to loose its value when you are looking at THOUSANDS or MILLIONS of years of lifespan.

So, I used the idea that Anagathics was a PROCESS, perhaps involving extended medical stays (say 1 month per term in a TL15 medical facility). Now it isn't something you can pack into a box and carry with you. YOU have to go to IT. So that Cr. 10,000 per month is your payments for the quadrennial treatment.

I still think that aging table is not always the right thing to use for a PC, so I let the PC use the TL of their homeworld to create a TL DM (like a characteristic DM) that they can use for aging rolls. So, if you come from a Low Tech world, you get a NEGATIVE DM, and of course you get that nice +4 DM at TL 15...

 

[Cleon the Mad]

I agree that financial restriction makes more sense, but taking the questionable legality (LL4 or below) of anagathics as given, the only reason I can see is that they must be inherently dangerous or at least unsafe. :

I didn't quote some of your more sinister ideas but the questionable legality could be more due to needing a doctor to administer them or at least a prescription as opposed to anything sinister. There's many prescription drugs that might get me arrested or at least detained if I had them on my person and was stopped by a police man IRL if I don't have a prescription for them.

Having said that, some of the sinister reasons do make a nice adventure hook as well, or at least some possible background.

 

[FreeTrav]

Not exactly relevant to PCs, but I seem to recall, somewhere in the morass of stuff we call 'canon', a statement to the effect that anagathics were frowned on for the Imperial Nobility. I recall that there was a reason given, but don't recall what that reason was; my take on it would be that it would lead to (a) too many of the nobility dying by violence at the hands of their heirs, and (b) a fossilization of attitudes, idea, and policies to preserve the status quo when such is generally a bad idea.