Why are Anagathics Illegal?
- Thread starter Captain Jonah
- Start date
Simple - it is due to the FISRA.*
Its a Law. Laws don't have to make sense. Historically laws often get made which might make sense at the time they were enacted (or not), then never get repealed.
Unfortunately, nobody is legally old enough to remember why Anagathics were made illegal. :lol:
*First Imperium Skills Reduction Act of 77
Its a Law. Laws don't have to make sense. Historically laws often get made which might make sense at the time they were enacted (or not), then never get repealed.
Unfortunately, nobody is legally old enough to remember why Anagathics were made illegal. :lol:
*First Imperium Skills Reduction Act of 77
Mark A. Siefert
Mongoose
Kosh: "(Warble, burble, moan, warble) You are not ready for immortality."
Cleon the Mad
Mongoose
For what it's worth, this is the whole article from the Traveller Wiki:
"Anagathics or Antiagathics are longevity drugs, usually a mixture several compounds. They help prolong life and prevent aging in Humans. A regimen of regular monthly doses enables an individual to ignore the debilitating effects of advancing years. They need to be used starting at the age of 30, and with luck, the user may reach an age of 100 or more before old age affects the user. Because of the rarity and demand for anagathics, they are quite expensive and are often unavailable at any price.
It takes a while for the total effects of anagathics to be felt; it also takes a while for the effects of anagathics to totally go away. However there are withdrawal effects from interrupting the supply of anagathics. Obviously, anagathics are most effective if they can be taken long-term without interruption. A continually interrupted supply can have devastating effects. Anagathics have dangerous side-effects on some users and often anagathics users take extra risks to maintain a constant supply.
Society generally frowns on nobles who take anagathics."
They don't state the reason why society frowns on nobles taking them either. My guess is perhaps it's seen as an abuse of power in some way? Not letting the heirs of the noble assume the title if someone keeps themselves abnormally long lived or immortal?
The article IMO does give a small hint as to why they are controlled, and illegal above Law level 4 IMO. It does indicate the danger to the user if the supply is interupted. That right there might be enough, a law passed for the person's own saftey.
Although I still like some of the sinister ideas too....
Oh, for the record, there's the wiki where that article came from:
http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Anagathics
"Anagathics or Antiagathics are longevity drugs, usually a mixture several compounds. They help prolong life and prevent aging in Humans. A regimen of regular monthly doses enables an individual to ignore the debilitating effects of advancing years. They need to be used starting at the age of 30, and with luck, the user may reach an age of 100 or more before old age affects the user. Because of the rarity and demand for anagathics, they are quite expensive and are often unavailable at any price.
It takes a while for the total effects of anagathics to be felt; it also takes a while for the effects of anagathics to totally go away. However there are withdrawal effects from interrupting the supply of anagathics. Obviously, anagathics are most effective if they can be taken long-term without interruption. A continually interrupted supply can have devastating effects. Anagathics have dangerous side-effects on some users and often anagathics users take extra risks to maintain a constant supply.
Society generally frowns on nobles who take anagathics."
They don't state the reason why society frowns on nobles taking them either. My guess is perhaps it's seen as an abuse of power in some way? Not letting the heirs of the noble assume the title if someone keeps themselves abnormally long lived or immortal?
The article IMO does give a small hint as to why they are controlled, and illegal above Law level 4 IMO. It does indicate the danger to the user if the supply is interupted. That right there might be enough, a law passed for the person's own saftey.
Although I still like some of the sinister ideas too....
Oh, for the record, there's the wiki where that article came from:
http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Anagathics
About the 'illegal' part...
My read is that the Law Level Table lists items that are illegal to possess without authorization. I.e., restricted with legal penalties.
This does not mean that the items are banned completely - but rather legally limited to those as allowed by law and legal authorities. I.e. - law enforcement, military, and certified professionals.
LL-3 states Heavy Weapons and Combat Drugs are prohibited possess - but, this does not mean to me that military forces would not possess such. Most systems probably are above LL-3 - do they not then have forces with heavy weapons?
So, while certain drugs might be prohibited, that just means to unauthorized persons. A legally recognized doctor, say, might still possess and administer aging drugs, narcotics, etc.
To me, this just means characters (who are not inter-system recognized medical professionals) , cannot legal carry or trade in certain drugs at prescribed law levels.
MGT states 2 drawbacks for aging drugs on TMB pg 37 - but I don't see where they are illegal (as in un-obtainable legally)...
My read is that the Law Level Table lists items that are illegal to possess without authorization. I.e., restricted with legal penalties.
This does not mean that the items are banned completely - but rather legally limited to those as allowed by law and legal authorities. I.e. - law enforcement, military, and certified professionals.
LL-3 states Heavy Weapons and Combat Drugs are prohibited possess - but, this does not mean to me that military forces would not possess such. Most systems probably are above LL-3 - do they not then have forces with heavy weapons?
So, while certain drugs might be prohibited, that just means to unauthorized persons. A legally recognized doctor, say, might still possess and administer aging drugs, narcotics, etc.
To me, this just means characters (who are not inter-system recognized medical professionals) , cannot legal carry or trade in certain drugs at prescribed law levels.
MGT states 2 drawbacks for aging drugs on TMB pg 37 - but I don't see where they are illegal (as in un-obtainable legally)...
About the 'frowned upon' part...
Since they are expensive/rare - it becomes an elitist thing. Probably the most blatant, visible, 'inequality' among classes based on wealth.
Also, if one takes such drugs, then guessing a persons age becomes extremely difficult. That might appear as a deception. Thus, the average citizen, who has no access to such, might perceive individuals who use such as generally suspect of dishonesty and thus untrustworthy.
These two things, in turn, could lead to nobility avoiding such in general (at least outwardly). Especially nobility actively governing a large, highly 'informed' populace who is otherwise faced with other inequalities of possessions, healthcare, education, freedoms, and/or status, etc.
The same stigmas as might also hold for cloning.
Since they are expensive/rare - it becomes an elitist thing. Probably the most blatant, visible, 'inequality' among classes based on wealth.
Also, if one takes such drugs, then guessing a persons age becomes extremely difficult. That might appear as a deception. Thus, the average citizen, who has no access to such, might perceive individuals who use such as generally suspect of dishonesty and thus untrustworthy.
These two things, in turn, could lead to nobility avoiding such in general (at least outwardly). Especially nobility actively governing a large, highly 'informed' populace who is otherwise faced with other inequalities of possessions, healthcare, education, freedoms, and/or status, etc.
The same stigmas as might also hold for cloning.
How's this: because anagathics aren't really drugs at all, they're actually pill-delivered nanites that go in and fix up the telomeres in the user's cells to prevent aging damage. (isn't nanotech conveniently not mentioned or illegal in Traveller?)
Maybe one day the nanites will get smart.
Maybe one day the nanites will get smart.
In Babylon V as I recall the primary component for their version of this was that for one life to be extended another life would have to be sacrificed as part of the formulae.
Of course there's also nanotech where nanomachines are injected and whilst the patient is left in a coma under suitable supervision their body is slowly repaired and their biological lifespan extended literally by the nanites restoring the hosts bodily functions to that of a much earlier subject.
Of course to reset beyond a certain level requires additional "treatments" in reality they reprogram the nanites to perform the same function again or any other modifications wanted whether the patient agreed to or not
(See the Sixth Day for a prime example of this except they use cloning).
Me I'd explain that they used the nanotech but exposed the subject to what would eventually mean they would be coopted and turned into a Borg like creature which ultimately meant this was all but banned save for those military and corporate experimental programs with too much money and absolutely no sense...
Hmm well the idea I was planning is definitely going along those lines as it starts after thirteen nanotech wars effectively left the spinward marches isolated from the Earth side of the galaxy and thus kind of enforced the view that this form of longevity process was "really" not worth the risk, however that doesn't mean they wouldn't try it again...
The idea that you would need access to TL14+ resources to make use of this and even then price it sky high as a result of them being greedy, the process far from perfect and it being addictive... well there are numerious options for the really sneaky dm...
Of course there's also nanotech where nanomachines are injected and whilst the patient is left in a coma under suitable supervision their body is slowly repaired and their biological lifespan extended literally by the nanites restoring the hosts bodily functions to that of a much earlier subject.
Of course to reset beyond a certain level requires additional "treatments" in reality they reprogram the nanites to perform the same function again or any other modifications wanted whether the patient agreed to or not
(See the Sixth Day for a prime example of this except they use cloning).
Me I'd explain that they used the nanotech but exposed the subject to what would eventually mean they would be coopted and turned into a Borg like creature which ultimately meant this was all but banned save for those military and corporate experimental programs with too much money and absolutely no sense...
Hmm well the idea I was planning is definitely going along those lines as it starts after thirteen nanotech wars effectively left the spinward marches isolated from the Earth side of the galaxy and thus kind of enforced the view that this form of longevity process was "really" not worth the risk, however that doesn't mean they wouldn't try it again...
The idea that you would need access to TL14+ resources to make use of this and even then price it sky high as a result of them being greedy, the process far from perfect and it being addictive... well there are numerious options for the really sneaky dm...
Cleon the Mad
Mongoose
Blix said:How's this: because anagathics aren't really drugs at all, they're actually pill-delivered nanites that go in and fix up the telomeres in the user's cells to prevent aging damage. (isn't nanotech conveniently not mentioned or illegal in Traveller?)
Maybe one day the nanites will get smart.
Nanites aren't illegal in Traveller (Well the OTU not the "generic setting"), but mostly because they are more or less not canon in the OTU. Unless Mongoose added them in an OTU publication or something else did in an earlier edition, they are something that are either way beyond TL 15 in the OTU or just don't really exist at all.
Having said that, it's been a while since I've even looked in my MGT books and I am suffering from insomnia right now, so I could be wrong on that too.
Cleon the Mad
Mongoose
BP said:
Mostly just QFT (or Quoted to agree really) by me. This IMO makes sense. I didn't quote this but I like your logic on your Frowned upon post as well.
Egil Skallagrimsson
Mongoose
Remember that different "possesions" have different law levels, depending upon government type, and (especially) GMs whim. I.e., a law level 9 society might ban all weapons, but have not problems with any drugs at all, it all depends on the culture of that planet. E.g., MoT core book, p179, describes Imperial star ports as having law level 1 for most items, but 7 for psionics. Even if your planet bans anagathics, the richer members of society can visit clinics in Imperial run starports.BP said:
So far have managed to avoid anagathics, if anything I think the restriction will be based on tech, TL15 only, and price, will probably increase the costs. I also tend to prefer to see anagathics as a way to slow down aging, perhaps by a factor of 4, rather than completely stop it.
The restriction on Imperial nobility looks like a cultural one, clearly it is seen as bad form to extend your life, does it suggest someone ill at ease with the universe?
Egil
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Hopeless said:
So your nanotech wars caused the Great Rift? Now THATS an idea!
Nano tech is actually relatively new - though I recall several books written during the Golden Era of SciFi that stretched to sub-molecular realms. In more formal scientific circles (at least in the U.S.), Feynman is credited with its introduction (from his “There’s Plenty of Room at the Bottom” talk in '59).
Traveller made no mention of nano-tech in the early days because Sci-Fi hadn't really gotten on that bandwagon yet.
I seem to recall some mention of nano-tech in MGT. In fact, it was on the Law Level table (pg 176). I think CSC mentions nano-tech in a few places (higher than TL 15)...
Traveller made no mention of nano-tech in the early days because Sci-Fi hadn't really gotten on that bandwagon yet.
I seem to recall some mention of nano-tech in MGT. In fact, it was on the Law Level table (pg 176). I think CSC mentions nano-tech in a few places (higher than TL 15)...
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
Nanites ate planets and created the claw. :shock:
Anyway lots of good points from a planet point of view. From an Imperium wide point of view though I am thinking more on the idea that: Its adjusted to each person on an annual basis so go book a week or more in a hi tech lab for your personal DNA tailored doses plus a lot of the religions will hate you for doing a deal with the everlasting devil, humanists will hate you for DNA manipulation away from human norm, your heirs will hate you for not dying, it works fine for a while but doesn't suspend aging rather it slows it and if your doctor is a bit sloppy all that DNA stuff messes you up.
I think what I may try is changing how often you make aging rolls, once per 2 years for tech 1/3. Once per 3 years for tech 4/6, every 4 years for tech 7-10, every 6 years for tech 11 - 13 and every 8 years for tech 14-15 with anagathics if used constantly negating every other roll. I'll scribble a downside chart to go with a medical check failure on the anagathics DNA matching :twisted:
That way you get old a lot slower but there is no turning off aging thing. Imortality is a grandfather job
Anyway lots of good points from a planet point of view. From an Imperium wide point of view though I am thinking more on the idea that: Its adjusted to each person on an annual basis so go book a week or more in a hi tech lab for your personal DNA tailored doses plus a lot of the religions will hate you for doing a deal with the everlasting devil, humanists will hate you for DNA manipulation away from human norm, your heirs will hate you for not dying, it works fine for a while but doesn't suspend aging rather it slows it and if your doctor is a bit sloppy all that DNA stuff messes you up.
I think what I may try is changing how often you make aging rolls, once per 2 years for tech 1/3. Once per 3 years for tech 4/6, every 4 years for tech 7-10, every 6 years for tech 11 - 13 and every 8 years for tech 14-15 with anagathics if used constantly negating every other roll. I'll scribble a downside chart to go with a medical check failure on the anagathics DNA matching :twisted:
That way you get old a lot slower but there is no turning off aging thing. Imortality is a grandfather job
I'm more fond of the idea that the PCs find out someone did achieve immortality and then discover this individual spent several aeons trying to find a "cure" for it!
Given PC mentality it would probably be enough to make them want to find out more only to discover the means that lone individual used to restore their mortality has left no way of discovering the process that inadvertedly caused it in the first place but the hilarity as they try anyway might make a great campaign especially if they ignore the signs that the last batch who tried ended up wiping themselves out in the process...
Throwing in links to the Gilgamesh myth by explaining the one who copied it got the entire story wrong and then throw in that the hole legend about winged angels and pretty much most of the heroic myths were retelling the tales of this one person who rather than seeking immortality sought the means to grow old and die like everyone else might be a little too subtle for the average player, well unless they're a doctor who fan and familiar with the Five Doctors story of course!
Anyway back to analgethics (bet i spelt "that" wrong!) just because a society has TL14 doesn't mean they have TL14 in that particular field of science now does it?
It would probably require immense wealth and suitable resources to gather up the materials needed to make the stuff and if that stuff requires say dna froma member of the recipients own family line... well it really depends on how scrupulous you want to go with this...
Play it straight and you might end up with 400 year olds who don't retire and outclass everyone, throw in a few curve balls and you have a potential new era of villains for the next generation to fight against...
Hope I didn't wander off too far off this thread's track!
Given PC mentality it would probably be enough to make them want to find out more only to discover the means that lone individual used to restore their mortality has left no way of discovering the process that inadvertedly caused it in the first place but the hilarity as they try anyway might make a great campaign especially if they ignore the signs that the last batch who tried ended up wiping themselves out in the process...
Throwing in links to the Gilgamesh myth by explaining the one who copied it got the entire story wrong and then throw in that the hole legend about winged angels and pretty much most of the heroic myths were retelling the tales of this one person who rather than seeking immortality sought the means to grow old and die like everyone else might be a little too subtle for the average player, well unless they're a doctor who fan and familiar with the Five Doctors story of course!
Anyway back to analgethics (bet i spelt "that" wrong!) just because a society has TL14 doesn't mean they have TL14 in that particular field of science now does it?
It would probably require immense wealth and suitable resources to gather up the materials needed to make the stuff and if that stuff requires say dna froma member of the recipients own family line... well it really depends on how scrupulous you want to go with this...
Play it straight and you might end up with 400 year olds who don't retire and outclass everyone, throw in a few curve balls and you have a potential new era of villains for the next generation to fight against...
Hope I didn't wander off too far off this thread's track!
BP said:
The most common, and most identifiable real world example of this that I can think of and that people will be familiar with is prescription medicine.
Illegal to sell, buy, import, export and possess without authorisation from a certified individual (one of the various medical personnel types with prescription authority, research licenses etc). Also in many countries its graded from simple OTC limited license controls up to Controlled Drugs.
Probably fits anagnathics pretty well
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
True but any doctor can then prescribe you those medicines and they are suddenly not illegal.
There is no real medical need for anagathics, people use them because they want to. They are the Traveller medical version of plastic surgery, elective not required.
So if you elect to use anagathics why is it illegal, frowned upon as a cultural thing yes but unless you are on a strict world with a reason (religion, anti plastic surgery etc) there is no solid reason for it to be a crime in OTU.
There have been some good ideas a bit futher back in the thread but again its one of those"its your game" things. The megacorps make the stuff so to my mind the only crime becomes using it without proper training/license etc or black market stuff which is trade name fraud and annoys the megacorps (plus you grow a third arm from the messed up DNA)
There is no real medical need for anagathics, people use them because they want to. They are the Traveller medical version of plastic surgery, elective not required.
So if you elect to use anagathics why is it illegal, frowned upon as a cultural thing yes but unless you are on a strict world with a reason (religion, anti plastic surgery etc) there is no solid reason for it to be a crime in OTU.
There have been some good ideas a bit futher back in the thread but again its one of those"its your game" things. The megacorps make the stuff so to my mind the only crime becomes using it without proper training/license etc or black market stuff which is trade name fraud and annoys the megacorps (plus you grow a third arm from the messed up DNA)
Is there any reason to think that anargathics have less issues with side effects, lethal doses and quality control than any other strong drug? Reason enough for regulation, especially if the treatment needs to be tailored to the patient.
Since they're TL15, they actually haven't been in general use in the 3I for that long, and might be considered a young technology with pitfalls still to be discovered, whereas other drugs (like medical slow) have been in use for centuries and don't. Many planets will have social, religious or moral objections to their use. Others won't.
Since they're TL15, they actually haven't been in general use in the 3I for that long, and might be considered a young technology with pitfalls still to be discovered, whereas other drugs (like medical slow) have been in use for centuries and don't. Many planets will have social, religious or moral objections to their use. Others won't.
CosmicGamer
Mongoose
Nice points. It made me think that systems would probably form a committee to study the effects of introducing these drug. Changes in work force demographics. People not dying would probably cause a population increase creating housing shortages, increasing the demand for goods (not always a good thing if supply can't keep up), additional waste disposal, increased pollution, the need to upgrade utilities and infrastructure and so on.rinku said:
Maybe in some locations the drugs are illegal because the government (with pressure from corporate lobby groups too) can't afford to be paying out pensions forever.
I wonder how much larger the population here on Earth would be if anti-aging drugs were introduced as few as 50 years ago...
