White Star, WS Enforcer, WS Gunship

[Da Boss]

Personally, I think the Liati could do with a slight tweak, anyway... it's always been really hard to fight against multiple Liatis with the ISA (which is kind of the point, I suppose) but I really can't see a way to do that with the tweaked Whitestar, to be honest (and I think the change is a good one, against just about every other fleet!)

Tha accurate, turreted Ion Cannon is the problem the ISA really can't cope with... if it were twin linked without being accurate, I think the match up would be extremely close. I fly both Centauri and ISA fleets, so I don't think I'm that biased about this point, I love the Liati, just think it may kick slightly too much Whitestar butt, now!

That is the point, isn't it? The Liati is a specialist White Star killer. I don't understand why people swear by them for general duties, they're just going to get slaughtered. Damage appropriate to a raid ship, weapons optimised to kill White Stars and basically no other use. Sure it has a DD beam, but Centauri and a few others aside, who doesn't have plenty? Centauri already have the DD beam on the Morgrath, so it's no huge deal.

Have you tried it yet? Its a very flexible and against many fleets, very durable ships - don't underestimate dodge4+ - couple that with speed agility to run with the Vorchan pack.

Now it often dies quickly because people consider it a dangerous ship and go all out to kill it...............they never ignore it (well LBH did once...........)

its a very different beast to the Primus but just as powerful in its own way. Use it, love it...........

 

[Burger]

And 2 Rutarians, too!

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I've not got mine built yet, but I can't see it being as good as you say - but I will use it when I can. You tried my Primus tip, after all... :wink:

 

[Da Boss]

indeed I did - I am using one tonight.

If the battles big enough for two will use them both - its a good ship - so much better than those sad narn efforts :wink:

 

[Foxmeister]

I keep hearing the term "Glass Hammer" when people refer to the Liati, but I've not seen it yet. Whenever I've seen them used, they've usually outperformed the Primus and I know I'd generally rather see a Primus on the table opposite me that a Liati. As long as Dodge holds up they're pretty tough IMHO!

Against opponents with mostly forward facing or short ranged firepower, if the Liati can get round the flanks/rear it can wreak almost as much havoc as a couple of White Stars.

The difference though is the Liati doesn't come in the numbers that a WS does, and therefore it is usually more manageable. It also doesn't have a TD beam, which makes a significant amount of difference.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I can't really see a Primus doing much to those high-hull Narn ships, it's true. Ion cannons really struggle against hull 6. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the Primus, Octurion and Adira (to a lesser extent) need to lose their ion and matter cannons and get heavy ion cannons as their primary armament. It'd be better against hull 6 - and what else is a capital ship for? - and it'd make sense in terms of background "fluff."

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I keep hearing the term "Glass Hammer" when people refer to the Liati, but I've not seen it yet.

It doesn't matter that it's made of glass if you can't hit the damn thing in the first place

 

[Da Boss]

Ill try it tonight and let you know how it goes against the new ISA but played it before and hammered Q'uons with Primus Battle cruisers. His guns are much worse at close range (or not firing at all)

The Octuirion is a little weak I'll grant you ...............

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Where the Octurion fails is in hitting ships in its own class - as I just explained. It'll mow down small ships, but what kind of lunatic builds a battleship and arms it with destroyer weapons? :roll:

 

[inq101]

Where the Octurion fails is in hitting ships in its own class - as I just explained. It'll mow down small ships, but what kind of lunatic builds a battleship and arms it with destroyer weapons? :roll:

Lunacy goes with the hairdo.

 

[SylvrDragon]

I fought the 3 gunships with the minbari (including a Neroon) and one took fire from almost everything on the table and it was barely scratched. Meanwhile they proceeded to carve throught the minbari like butter.

Same problem as the WS. Sit on CBD and blast away.

The gunship is far more manoverable and survivable than most battle ships. It's still got dodge 4+!! I don't see how people can complain about the WS and not the gunship, it's double the stats for double the cost!?!

I see this as more a problem with CBD than the White Star, or any other fleet, such as the previously mentioned Minbari, that makes use of this tactic.

 

[Greg Smith]

Da Boss and I played tonight, and the White Stars got absolutely hammered.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Always good to hear...

 

[Greg Smith]

Except that the stated aim is to balance the White Stars.

 

[Ike]

The current incarnation simply begs to be sent out of the rear/flank arcs of ships to snipe where there is absolutely no possibility of return fire. That would be fine for a "made for the game" ship, but this is the most iconic ship in the B5 universe and therefore the game has a duty to make it behave as it does on screen.

I always thought it looked liked a plucked chicken

 

[SylvrDragon]

Except that the stated aim is to balance the White Stars.

But if the issue is the SA and not the ship, then any fixes you attempt will simply worsen matters. Don't get so focused on what you don't like as to ignore what the real goal here is. If other fleets can do the exact same thing as the White Stars, then it seems as though your focus has missed the real target. Perhaps, instead of trying to fix something that may not be broken, fix what we know is. I think limiting the turns made on CBD would kill 2 birds with one stone. Fixes the issues brought up in all fleets that abuse it, including the White Stars.

I'd say limit ships to 1 turn, and ships with only 1 turn would be not allowed to make any.

or

Replace the limit on the3 number of weapons that may be fired, and in it's place reduce all AD by 1/2 and limit firing to a single arc.

Either one forces places to think about using CBD. Which means, since there's a real drawback, that they'll use it when they need it and not as a basic defense.

Just a thought.

 

[mollari_uk]

I see this as more a problem with CBD than the White Star, or any other fleet, such as the previously mentioned Minbari, that makes use of this tactic.

I agree but we've hit a brick wall with this before. I hate CBD and think it should be changed or completely removed. Anyone tried a game without it where you normally use CBD a lot?

However I don't see why the Minbari would use it so much. The Minbari have all round fire, if you use CBD then you are taking away one of their strengths. Whenever I've played with the Minbari my opponents try to get in close to reduce stealth. If they do I turn my ships so that all of them get to fire from multiple arcs. It's very effective.

 

[Da Boss]

I see this as more a problem with CBD than the White Star, or any other fleet, such as the previously mentioned Minbari, that makes use of this tactic.

I agree but we've hit a brick wall with this before. I hate CBD and think it should be changed or completely removed. Anyone tried a game without it where you normally use CBD a lot?

However I don't see why the Minbari would use it so much. The Minbari have all round fire, if you use CBD then you are taking away one of their strengths. Whenever I've played with the Minbari my opponents try to get in close to reduce stealth. If they do I turn my ships so that all of them get to fire from multiple arcs. It's very effective.

The Minbari tend to use it early while they have only their very long range weapons in play and as the enemy close (depending on the ship) - one of their tactics is to move through the enemy as they close and then blast away with rear firing arcs as they try to turn (again this can often by done whilst on CBD). The mutiple arcs means they can work this style of tactic very well.

At lower level PL games the Ashinta especially benefits. The Ashinta excells at cruising round at 18" range firing out of one arc whilst soaking damage on CBD (if it is even seen) - esp since it has high damage and crew. Against fleets like Earth this can be devestating - in the last camaign we had a number of games at low PL with both Minbari and ISA that were completely one sided for this reason - the Earth player never had a chance in the games.............

 

[Target]

We have CBD with No DC, makes you stop & think about if it really worth it ( plus with our redundancy, we have it that you can't use it either)

 

[Da Boss]

Da Boss and I played tonight, and the White Stars got absolutely hammered.

for info

I took Primus, Balvarin (4 Raziks, 4 Sentri), 3 Demos (new version) (squadroned), Kutai, 2 Haven (squadroned as per new rules)

Greg took 4 White Stars (2 Scouts) and 3 Blue Stars

First round nothing happened - ships closed, second round Greg closed into weapons range - Primus hammered 1 WS and 1 Scout which returned fire and virtually cut the Primus in half (6,6 crit) :shock: Finished the Scout and WS with the Demos and Kutai and Havens and Blue stars exchange fire with the Nials being slaughtered by the Raziks 8)
Next couple of rounds saw the Demos and fighters swarm WS's and BS's (minor damage but useful) as they tried to engage and by round 6 or so the last ISA ships were destroyed

Loses - 1 Primus, 1 Haven - 1 Haven Crippled, light damage to 2 Demos, Balvarin and 1 Demos untouched,

If I had had a Liati - I think it would have been much more one sided.

Now the Centauri are a very very good fleet but it did (to me) highlight some worries - even though this is only one game.

The short range means the enemy fighters are very much in the game (always a ISA weakness). Although the change will encourage close range fighting- should make good games agaisnt EA and some league - it will make little difference to the Narn and draws them into optimum range for the Centauri and pak'mara. The Gaim also should benefit from the reduction in range.

I think it will mean the ISA leaning more heavily on Allies such as the Carriers, fighter clearence with the Gaim/ Narn ships, or Escorts such as the Ashinta.

we had average rolls for most of the game and used BBS to try to avoid high beam ups and downs - which worked. The only bad crits was the one on the Primus and adrift on a WS, that coupled with crippling taking out all the important traits several times balanced up ok.

don't know the answer - need to see more testing on the revised WS to see if this was a one off or a consequence of fleet choice.