White Star, WS Enforcer, WS Gunship

[Juzza]

just my opinion but why not Up the white star firepower on the short range cannons give an extra ad on the beam or a 3 or 4 more AD on the pulsar. So still powerful ship but different and sloves the whole snipeing issue, And the ISA player does not feel so hard done by.

Then its not an nerf its a change that can be used across the board the white star gets 3 dice beam and the white star gunship gets 6 dice beam at 10 inches or whatever

 

[nekomata fuyu]

It's certainly a type of change that I'd be happy with if it turns out that the sharter range does underpower the White Star.
On the flip side, the issue with the shorter range is that it means that ISA players now have to worry about being shot at, and the WS may not be tough enough to take it. Because of this, it may be worth looking at defensive upgrades (increased damage/crew or dodge) as an alternative to upping the firepower.

 

[Triggy]

More playtesting is definitely needed. Particularly against a wide variety of foes. Don't forget there will be one or two opponents where an all-White Star fleet will be sub-optimal, the trick is so long as there are alternatives in the ISA fleet then the White Star only needs to be 100% effective against 90% of opponents.

 

[Greg Smith]

More playtesting is definitely needed. Particularly against a wide variety of foes. Don't forget there will be one or two opponents where an all-White Star fleet will be sub-optimal, the trick is so long as there are alternatives in the ISA fleet then the White Star only needs to be 100% effective against 90% of opponents.

But what are the alternatives:

At patrol the Blue Star is a small White Star
At Raid: there is the White Star and White Star II
At Battle there is the Gunship - which is two WS added together. This may remain the ship of choice if its laser stays at 18".

By crippling the WS, we are gutting the whole fleet.

 

[Taran]

I think he's bringing up his desire for ISA to have more ships again, rather than all the allies...

 

[l33tpenguin]

By crippling the WS, we are gutting the whole fleet.

Is the White Star really crippled, though? Or is it brought into line with most other ships? Only play testing will tell!

 

[Ripple]

We've not seen many tests, questions for me are what kind of maneuvers did the whitestars try?

Just wondering, we lost the bore sighted whitestar based on one of these games where they couldn't ever bore sight. Something I could never duplicate aside from stuff hiding in a corner. Wondering if this is a similar case...

I do have some concerns for the all whitestar fleet, but do we ever see that where they don't massively outnumber their opponent?

Ripple

 

[mollari_uk]

I think crippled is going a bit far. There are plenty of ships with short ranges who don't have the defenses, speed or manouverability of the WS. People need to view the new WS as an independent ship, comparing it with other ships of it's class and not with the previous version. The previous version is broken and needs a nerf.

Compare it to the Shadow scout (not one on one though!) and I think it hold up pretty well and I consider the scout one of the best raid ships. Both have short range, active defenses and similar damage scores (when you add the traits on).

 

[Greg Smith]

Is the White Star really crippled, though? Or is it brought into line with most other ships? Only play testing will tell!

So far the only playtest I know about is the one I've done - and that says it has has it still-beating heart ripped right out of its chest.

Okay that was a little strong. :lol:

I will post my playtest report - personally I think the problem with the WS is that there is a rock/paper/scissors effect against slower fleets.

Bringing the beam range down counters that, but it then reverses the affect against other fleets.

 

[AdrianH]

I love it. First the White Star is overpowered and needs the laser's range reduced. Mongoose finally reduce the laser's range, and suddenly the White Star is underpowered.

The Shadow Scout will generally kill the White Star in a small battle, mainly because it is likely to win initiative, so one White Star probably won't have anything to shoot at. In a larger battle, I'd think it might be even - two Shadow Scouts can gang up to cripple or kill one White Star, but one White Star with reasonable rolls can take down a Scout's shields with its pulsars, then have an even chance of pinning it with the beam.

And it's pure coincidence that, just when the White Star seems to become particularly vulnerable against Vree, I'm on the verge of getting some Vree ships.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Is the White Star really crippled, though? Or is it brought into line with most other ships? Only play testing will tell!

So far the only playtest I know about is the one I've done - and that says it has has it still-beating heart ripped right out of its chest.

Okay that was a little strong. :lol:

I will post my playtest report - personally I think the problem with the WS is that there is a rock/paper/scissors effect against slower fleets.

Bringing the beam range down counters that, but it then reverses the affect against other fleets.

How well would it fair if an extra 2-3 crew+damage were added? Toughen it up just a little.

I personnally think cutting down on the range of the beam brings it more into line with what we see on screen, We never saw the white star out on the edges sniping. It was ALWAYS getting shoved down the throat of the enemy.

Between this version and the old one, I think this is less underpowered than the other is overpowered, if that makes sense. It also seems like the short ranged beam will make the ship easier to balance against most fleets vs. balancing the ship with the long range beam.

 

[Greg Smith]

I love it. First the White Star is overpowered and needs the laser's range reduced.

I concur that the White Star can very, very good when used right.

I disagree with the drastic range reduction. Personally, I prefered the previous solution, but I am in the minority.

And I always said that the changes needed a lot of playtesting, which is one of the reasons we opened up the playtesting to the board. There has been a lot of debate, but little testing.

I am quite happy to be proved wrong about the changes, but I want to see it tested.

 

[Burger]

I still say 18" 2AD B/DD/P

 

[H]

Is the White Star really crippled, though? Or is it brought into line with most other ships? Only play testing will tell!

So far the only playtest I know about is the one I've done - and that says it has has it still-beating heart ripped right out of its chest.

Okay that was a little strong. :lol:

I will post my playtest report - personally I think the problem with the WS is that there is a rock/paper/scissors effect against slower fleets.

Bringing the beam range down counters that, but it then reverses the affect against other fleets.

but then one playtest proves nothing, you sounded unlucky with your dodges for sure, on another day you could have sailed along taking few hits. lets keep the playtests going. of course you did come up against a fleet with optimal close range weaponry. Interesting report on the EA/Narn battle.

 

[Da Boss]

re the Centauri / ISA playtest

It may not have been the optimal ISA fleet - a gunship or an Allied Ashinta may have been more effective. It was nearly my optimal Centauri fleet - I would normally take a Liati whihc owuld have been more effective. The ISA lucked out with a 6,6 crit on a Primus with trippple damage gun taking it nearly destroyed from lamost undamaged.

The White Stars seemed to dodge about the right amount of hits - they did well against most but once the the Centauri guns hit - they hurt.
Both our dice were fairly average in terms of hits and crits (lots of 1,1, and 1,2 's)

re the Narn test

For the first time in living memory Greg had good beam rolls with the Narn beams - usually 2x AD and once even more which meant they were quite effective. The Omega had low- average to start with but later killed two ships with beam hits.
I did not play the EA well but they rallied mid game and it was quite close in the end - the G'quon 3 off being crippled and surrounded by fighters
The new Narn CBD made no difference in this particular game.
Having short range guns myself (bloody Narn arms dealers) I had to close to fire at them - not something my Centauri would have worried about.
I had taken a fighter heavy fleet (should have taken a couple of skirmish ships or a Nova) and ran into a pulsar mine heavy fleet - not a good choice :lol:
The track that target SO worked once but sods law the beam only got a couple of non criting hits.

 

[H]

I still say 18" 2AD B/DD/P

I don't know why DD has proved such a problem for people to consider

 

[Da Boss]

Its a unofficial official House rule :wink:

 

[Foxmeister]

[
but then one playtest proves nothing, you sounded unlucky with your dodges for sure, on another day you could have sailed along taking few hits. lets keep the playtests going. of course you did come up against a fleet with optimal close range weaponry. Interesting report on the EA/Narn battle.

Whilst the theory is that luck should average out, when testing the WS I would've thought for playtest purposes it might be more useful to simply say that a WS with Dodge automatically dodges half the hits it takes from a non-accurate weapon system, alternating between rounding up and rounding down when odd numbers of hits occurs.

IMHO, this would remove prevent overly bad or good dodge rolls skewing the playtest results, in much the same way that Triggys suggestion that using TBS and re-rolling 6/5 and 6/6 crit results flattens out beams and crits.

Obviously you could take it much further and use averages for all "to hit" rolls, but that wouldn't make much of a game of it!

However, should playtesting bear out that this version is too weak, I have couple of suggestions to bring it back.

1. Instead of just dropping the range of the beam, swap the ranges of the beam and the molecular pulsar.
2. Add a new trait (Advanced Dodge perhaps?), whereby the Dodge score is increased to 3+ when the WS is within 10" (i.e. WS weapons range) of the firing ship).

I am sans opponent these days due to be out of the country, but if I get a chance this weekend I'm going to try to set up a few solo scenarios to test out the new WS.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Greg Smith]

but then one playtest proves nothing, you sounded unlucky with your dodges for sure, on another day you could have sailed along taking few hits.

For the most parts the dodge rolls were average. On the other hand I was lucky getting a 6,6 on the Primus.

lets keep the playtests going.

We definitely need to see more.

of course you did come up against a fleet with optimal close range weaponry.

I chose it deliberately. There are several races who I beleive will gain a very significant advantage over the WS, I want to see just how bad it was. Another playtest will be in the offing, probably against a slower race.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

of course you did come up against a fleet with optimal close range weaponry.

I chose it deliberately. There are several races who I beleive will gain a very significant advantage over the WS, I want to see just how bad it was. Another playtest will be in the offing, probably against a slower race.

At the same time, we have to make sure that we don't make the WS overpowered against 90% of opponents just so that it's balanced against the other 10%.