What's your goto tech?

[rinku]

TL12+ vaccsuit with extras. Computer weave and self sealing a must. Smart fabric and being able to change the look are nice options too. Camo is a bit "look at me, I'm a threat" but some stylish bright colours and designs, updated on the fly or even animated says "hey, this is a fun person".

Gauss pistol is the best bang for buck in the armoury, but illegal on most planets. Stunners are a better idea most of the time. Shotguns are as good as they ever were, and legal on more planets than they should be

 

[rinku]

Bullets don't knock you back, pure hollywood.

Depends on local gravity and friction. If I unload a shotgun on a floating target while magnetically clamped to a hull, you can be sure that target is going to start moving away from me.

 

[rinku]

I am struggling with Cloth armour. You can wear a cloth trench coat over cloth giving you a total of 14 points protection. The combination is cheap as chips at Cr1000 and at TL10 it negates most weapons. Very few weapons have more than 3 dice damage and damage at or below that is easily thwarted by cloth.

I am opting for a rule that kinetic damage stopped by flexible armour is converted to stun damage rather than being negated completely.

Not a bad idea. But don't overlook that Effect adds to damage (as well as STR mod to melee) and that penetration is a thing. Also that an attack with Effect 6+ will always inflict at least one point of damage regardless of armour.

eg. Rifle (3D damage), DEX9 (+1), Gun Combat (Slug)-2, +1 Leadership bonus, Aims (+1) at Short range (+1) with a Laser Sight (+1) rolls an 8 to hit. That's an effect roll of 7, will automatically do a point of damage. If the damage roll is 11, that's 18 points and the target takes 4 anyway. If armour piercing rounds are loaded, shave 3 points off the Armour, so they took 7 points.

There could be more mods, higher skills, better weapons, more time spent aiming etc, but I listed a not unlikely situation. Aimed shots from cover against unaware targets in particular can be very deadly. Or a lucky to hit roll followed by a lucky damage one... and suddenly that threat that's "easily thwarted" puts the target on the ground bleeding out.

Also note that Cloth is generally illegal at LL4 or more. It's a fairly bulky combo too, 7kg (even though that's only 1.75kg against encumberance while worn). But Advanced Poly Carapace is a lighter, more effective armour (though expensive).

 

[swordtart]

Not a bad idea. But don't overlook that Effect adds to damage (as well as STR mod to melee) and that penetration is a thing. Also that an attack with Effect 6+ will always inflict at least one point of damage regardless of armour.

eg. Rifle (3D damage), DEX9 (+1), Gun Combat (Slug)-2, +1 Leadership bonus, Aims (+1) at Short range (+1) with a Laser Sight (+1) rolls an 8 to hit. That's an effect roll of 7, will automatically do a point of damage. If the damage roll is 11, that's 18 points and the target takes 4 anyway. If armour piercing rounds are loaded, shave 3 points off the Armour, so they took 7 points.

There could be more mods, higher skills, better weapons, more time spent aiming etc, but I listed a not unlikely situation. Aimed shots from cover against unaware targets in particular can be very deadly. Or a lucky to hit roll followed by a lucky damage one... and suddenly that threat that's "easily thwarted" puts the target on the ground bleeding out.

Also note that Cloth is generally illegal at LL4 or more. It's a fairly bulky combo too, 7kg (even though that's only 1.75kg against encumberance while worn). But Advanced Poly Carapace is a lighter, more effective armour (though expensive).

Part of the issue is that Traveller doesn't differentiate between high velocity rifle and lower velocity pistol hits. A pistol could be reasonably expected to be defeated by ballistic cloth, a rifle should need ceramic plates of considerable resilience. A Rifle does 3D damage as does a Cutlass and an Autopistol is only 3 points less.

The modifiers simulate good shot placement (and possibly bypassing armour entirely since there are no default hit location rules).

I am currently running a game in Tarsus and have had to reach out to the Field Catalogue to custom design somehting capable of killing a nobble humanely (defined as at least unconscious from a single hit) without resorting to heavy weapons. A big game rifle only does 3D+3 and you will need all those DMs mentioned to increase the damage to enough to wound anything resembling big game unless you rolled really well on the 3D. The Nobble for example needs over 20 hits* to incapacitate (and it has a few points armour to boot). It is reasonably possible with Enhanced Wounding Ammunition (3d6+9), but as that trebles the value of armour protection this "elephant gun" would on average just bounce off someone in TL10 cloth with no ill effects at all. Under my rules it would be at least be delivering 3d6+3 stun damage.

*Based on the Classic Traveller module - though the figure should probably be higher under MGT2 rules.

 

[MonsterX]

Depends on local gravity and friction. If I unload a shotgun on a floating target while magnetically clamped to a hull, you can be sure that target is going to start moving away from me.

And if you're NOT magnetically clamped to anything, you'll also start moving away from the target (these amount to the same thing in many situations). Depending on where the target is hit, and how you're holding your shotgun, either you are the target or both could end up spinning as well. And hilarity ensues.

 

[ottarrus]

Usually close enough to not have to worry. Remind me which previous Traveller rules has cinematic combat knockdown?

Hence the damage variability, effect bonus etc. The reality is shot placement is usually a bigger deciding factor.

Yes, I used Aftermath as my go to game for years and used the hit location tables in Runequest, harn, and many others including Aftermath in space (I used it for Space Master)

Completely agree.

I agree again.

It's nothing to do with grit or crunch, it is the cinematic that I dislike.
There is no such thing as knockback for firearms, if the shooter doesn't fall over neither does the target, not from momentum transfer at any rate. If the bullet hits the brainstem then you fall down...

I'm gonna disagree with you there Sig.
I've seen someone take a 5.56 /.227 in the shoulder and get knocked on his ass. While yes, you rightly point out the law of mass transfer, you neglect such things as shock, loss of motor control, and blood loss. There's more than one factor involved.
This does NOT mean that 'gun fu' a'la John Wick is real. That level of cinematic is complete bullshit. But a .45 ACP [which you'll agree is about the level of 'Autopistol' in Traveller] will put a man off his feet.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Depends on local gravity and friction. If I unload a shotgun on a floating target while magnetically clamped to a hull, you can be sure that target is going to start moving away from me.

By the same token if you fire the shotgun at a target also magnetically clamped to the hull it doesn't.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I'm gonna disagree with you there Sig.
I've seen someone take a 5.56 /.227 in the shoulder and get knocked on his ass. While yes, you rightly point out the law of mass transfer, you neglect such things as shock, loss of motor control, and blood loss. There's more than one factor involved.

That is a reaction to being hit, not momentum transfer, a failed endurance roll if you like. It is a proven fact that people fall over when shot because they think they should, people shot unawares often don't even register being hit. People can be shot in the heart and still move around for a few tens of seconds.
I think we are talking about different things here.
Falling over due to impact momentum - nope.
Falling over due to the damage that is done - yep.

This does NOT mean that 'gun fu' a'la John Wick is real. That level of cinematic is complete bullshit. But a .45 ACP [which you'll agree is about the level of 'Autopistol' in Traveller] will put a man off his feet.

I refer you to Garand Thumb, the 9mm is more likely to put someone down.

An experiment if you live in a country where your divine right to self defence isn't oppressed by government.

Take a plate and duct tape it to a punch bag.

Shoot the plate with a variety of firearms, noting how much the bag moves.

Now kick the bag with a decent side kick, or if you have good technique a punch.

Next hit the bag with a baseball bat, lumber axe, whatever you can get hold of.

Report back your findings.

 

[Arkathan]

Reaction to being hit is the knockdown rule. Not sure what the real argument is any more.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Me neither to be honest, I though we were talking about momentum knockback...

 

[swordtart]

Me neither to be honest, I though we were talking about momentum knockback...

Me neither. I mentioned taking stun damage from bullets when wearing flexible armour, then you said bullets don't knockback. No-one had mentioned it before you, but once that can o'worms was opened...

 

[ottarrus]

And I thought we were discussing the phenomenon of bullet strikes knocking a human-sized target down in general, not must merely physics.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I still want one of the colonials to try my experiment suggestion.

One day I will get to the US and try it for myself.

 

[swordtart]

I still want one of the colonials to try my experiment suggestion.

One day I will get to the US and try it for myself.

I don't think we need the experiment. I can predict with a lot of confidence that the bullets will move the bag very little, the punch will move it more, the side kick and hafted weapon even more as that is the scale of energy transfer.

I am not sure what the purpose of the experiment is other than demonstrating the effects of various weapons on a punchbag. A punch bag is not a person and ballistic effects are not just momentum based.

I agree that people do not fly back on wires like stunt men do in films from any of those attacks. I don't agree that a human being will never be involuntarily moved or disoriented as a result of impact by a bullet (or other attack).

That's problem with using ill-defined and emotive words like knockdown and knockback (and for using them to refute arguments that didn't use those terms). Some people will be thinking in terms of the effect portrayed in the Wild Bunch or modern "action" films and some people will think the vast majority of credible experimentation by military scientists, You Tube demonstrations or anecdotal and personal experience.

Look at the photo of when Lee Harvey Oswald was shot by Jack Ruby. Oswald didn't fly back, but he clearly isn't just shrugging it off (and a .38 calibre Colt Cobra pistol is hardly the last word in firepower).

For reference MGT2 Field Catalogue has the following to say:

'In theory any shot can achieve a ‘knockdown’ – a situation in which the target is immediately stopped in what they are doing and quite possibly sent to the ground. If a knockdown is achieved, the target cannot act for the rest of that round and all of the next.'

Note that this is not cinematic combat knockdown this is ‘hit hard and temporarily unable to act' for a few seconds.

The criteria is quite stringent. The attack has to do more damage than the species maximum (so 15 for humans) whether this penetrates armour or not. The target then makes a routine STR check to resist with negative modifiers of the amount the damage exceeded their species maximum and a few points depending on the penetrating property of the bullet. This is quite a high bar.

On that basis a pistol usually won't have the energy to cause knockback, many AP rounds are likely to pass through without causing knockback. It is really only likely with high energy rounds that are also low penetration (either because of a property of the bullet itself, or because the armour allows more of the bullet energy to be transferred) or because you did massive damage due to excellent shot placement. This is not inconsistent with plenty of You Tube videos of shooting at ballistic torsos or anecdotal evidence presented in my reading of military history (where most targets did not have effective body armour and "man-stopper" rounds were developed specifically to exploit this effect).

The game effect is you cannot act for the rest of the round and the whole of the next. The cinematic is entirely down to the referee (as in most RPG - excepting for example ICE games with their humorous critical tables - including all editions of Traveller). It could be slapping a hand to the wound in shock, it could be staggering back due to the pain or being unbalanced or it could actually dropping to the ground or falling back because people think that is what they should do when shot (which in normal combat where Mozambique drill is not in force is not a bad survival strategy).

I don't think that is unreasonable (not that I was discussing that anyway)

 

[Arkathan]

I love the one where you step on an invisible dead turtle.

 

[Condottiere]

Stuff that forensic examiners have trouble pinning down, or attributing to you.

 

[Saladman]

I've read that if you get shot in the hips, you're getting down and not getting back up again. You might live but the human body just doesn't move like normal with a wound in that part of the skeleton. So that's a narrow instance where a round of "knockdown" is already the cinematic version of the gritty reality.

I know we don't have hit locations in Traveller, but you could say the various knockdown or knockout rules are catching some of those effects.

 

[dragon3r]

We are balanced forward so we have a tendency to fall forward. Doesn't matter, if one wanted realism of wounding, the "roll 6D for months it takes to heal" for realistic healing would be stifling to the game. My Father was a wounded veteran, and I have volunteered to work with veterans; some wounds never get better.

 

[Arkathan]

Four tech levels ago, we were mostly in the dark about the relationship between microbes and illness. Four tech levels from now, according to Traveller, regeneration is becoming possible. realistic depends on what your native tech levels considers to be magic.

And character generation injuries are mostly a matter of cash and co-payments in universe. This TL, not so much

 

[dragon3r]

Some people still don't believe in microbiology. The healing rules are for gaming, one can apply "technology" to it, though likely it would still take a good while to heal, realistically.