Whats with the Armageddon Saggitarius?
- Thread starter Locutus9956
- Start date
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
Try playing 3 battle points or 2 war points, and see how the fight breaks down then.
Exactly my sentiments. I'm very glad Mongoose are listening and thinking on what we say even if a little disappointed it took this long. What's good is that a lot of input is being considered for ACtA v2 for next year...Locutus9956 said:Hooray! It seems the mongoose folks ARE listening to us afterall as evidenced by Matt's recent post(for those that missed it the Saggitarius is being revised in the next issue of S&P, it's still kind of annoying that this is necessary given that we had about a year of the tourney version for them to update it in the big 'A' but better late than never I suppose
captainsmirk
Mongoose
Hash said:
That'll teach them to keep pestering him with unfounded rumours about the poor, wimpy, little Saggi
. What did it ever do to hurt anyone?BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA... :twisted:
Nick
Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
I'm slightly embarrassed to be admitting this...
Mark, 10 Saggi fleet, Armageddon stats, Flash missiles all round;
me, 3 Jashakar, 2 Omelos, 3 Targrath. Annihilation.
At no point in the proceedings did the EA win initiative. They deployed in two echelons facing inward- 5 Saggis on the right facing left, 5 on the left facing right, the Dilgar lined up in a fairly compact group slightly off centre, hoping to catch them as they crossed and maybe explode a couple.
Round one was a non- event. The Dilgar advanced- on All Stop, minimum moves- to an average range of 30. 125" from their targets, the Saggis started to bunch up nicely.
Round Two saw virtually the entire Dilgar fleet slamming forwards on APtE. If they had gone on all stop, so would I, and I would have waited him out. I needed him to come just a little bit forward, just enough that I could get bolter targets- it worked.
All three Targrath got separate prime targets- they were set up on slightly diverging courses, not that much of a surprise really- and I know the odds should have left me with my head to play with. Three of the Saggis could fire forward and one side arc, two had been passed and had only fore arcs open, five had one side arc.
I'm really starting to think the firing sequence is the key to the game. Splitting, counterforce, the first Targrath removed one Saggi's interceptors with pulsar fire, launched torpedoes at a ship with three others within 4" of it, and smashed the main target with bolter fire doing engine and reactor crits that left it crippled and crewless.
It got worse from there. The mighty Dilgar scored four kills on the first firing turn, three with bolters and one with converging torpedoes.
By the end of round three, the situation was 3 Saggis had exploded, two were burning and adrift, two more had run out of crew, one was crippled, one was speed 0 and ripe for boarding, and the last one had only lost four hull and thirteen crew and was on No SA. I'd lost a Targrath and a Jashakar, one more of each badly battered but still basically there, and one Omelos crippled and one point off skeleton.
Mark gave up at that point, Standing Down and Preparing to be Boarded. So- what does this prove, if anything? I stole his luck- getting three or four times the number of crits he did. I roll outrageously well with the Dilgar, routinely two or three hits more than I ought to out of the twelve dice salvo. We were using the same set of dice, and I never realised just how large 67% is before.
Yes, the Saggi is bent. It's outrageously overpowered. It's absurd. It required monstrous statistical aberrations to come through with a shade over a third of the force in good fighting order and lots of human scalps to hang on the wall.
Mark, 10 Saggi fleet, Armageddon stats, Flash missiles all round;
me, 3 Jashakar, 2 Omelos, 3 Targrath. Annihilation.
At no point in the proceedings did the EA win initiative. They deployed in two echelons facing inward- 5 Saggis on the right facing left, 5 on the left facing right, the Dilgar lined up in a fairly compact group slightly off centre, hoping to catch them as they crossed and maybe explode a couple.
Round one was a non- event. The Dilgar advanced- on All Stop, minimum moves- to an average range of 30. 125" from their targets, the Saggis started to bunch up nicely.
Round Two saw virtually the entire Dilgar fleet slamming forwards on APtE. If they had gone on all stop, so would I, and I would have waited him out. I needed him to come just a little bit forward, just enough that I could get bolter targets- it worked.
All three Targrath got separate prime targets- they were set up on slightly diverging courses, not that much of a surprise really- and I know the odds should have left me with my head to play with. Three of the Saggis could fire forward and one side arc, two had been passed and had only fore arcs open, five had one side arc.
I'm really starting to think the firing sequence is the key to the game. Splitting, counterforce, the first Targrath removed one Saggi's interceptors with pulsar fire, launched torpedoes at a ship with three others within 4" of it, and smashed the main target with bolter fire doing engine and reactor crits that left it crippled and crewless.
It got worse from there. The mighty Dilgar scored four kills on the first firing turn, three with bolters and one with converging torpedoes.
By the end of round three, the situation was 3 Saggis had exploded, two were burning and adrift, two more had run out of crew, one was crippled, one was speed 0 and ripe for boarding, and the last one had only lost four hull and thirteen crew and was on No SA. I'd lost a Targrath and a Jashakar, one more of each badly battered but still basically there, and one Omelos crippled and one point off skeleton.
Mark gave up at that point, Standing Down and Preparing to be Boarded. So- what does this prove, if anything? I stole his luck- getting three or four times the number of crits he did. I roll outrageously well with the Dilgar, routinely two or three hits more than I ought to out of the twelve dice salvo. We were using the same set of dice, and I never realised just how large 67% is before.
Yes, the Saggi is bent. It's outrageously overpowered. It's absurd. It required monstrous statistical aberrations to come through with a shade over a third of the force in good fighting order and lots of human scalps to hang on the wall.
He also did exactly what you wanted him to do. He bunched up right in front of you instead of spreading out somewhat and using his range to add up the crits over time. And while the Sag is broken, the Dilgar book Targrath is also in the high end of the pl bracket. Tournament stats you would not have been able to do anything like that, and the tourney was pretty well balanced with the two often noted abberations. (well on the high end, still think the league had issues measuring up as individual races.)
Ripple
Ripple
angelus2000
Mongoose
Cause they can't, and don't, taken as individual races. The four League races combined would be a nasty opponent (quick raidy Drazi, Lotsa dice Abbai, big slow brick Brakiri, and AF goodness from Vree) but split apart, it should be readily apparent they are going to have some issues working seperately.
I love SNJs post about the Sags.
You think hes going to say Sags are ok, until you gets to the statistical part. His tactic was great the EA one flawed, and yet it took outrageous statistical aberrations to make it work.
Theorymachine is no substitute for real battle.
But it helps so much!
You think hes going to say Sags are ok, until you gets to the statistical part. His tactic was great the EA one flawed, and yet it took outrageous statistical aberrations to make it work.
Theorymachine is no substitute for real battle.
But it helps so much!
Epaminondas
Mongoose
So are all Sagis now Skirmish? Or just in a certain era?
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Saggis only EXIST in early EA list now, theyre gone from the later two completely so in fact both those statements are true, all Saggis are skirmish and only in a certain era are they skirmish 
Epaminondas
Mongoose
Ahhh. Early is up to what date?
starting a 2261 campaign... Should I buy the new book, or is Sky Full of Stars sufficient...?
Thanks!
[Just had my first game last night.]
===
Two (uneducated) comments-
1. Ships do not exist in isolation. A Skirmish level saggi might be unbalanced; but in a background respecting list containing say an Omega, the underpowered Omega balances out the Saggie. You have to look at the entire fleet to determine balance.
2. Points value v. Fleet allocation. Fleet allocation is an interesting way of doing things; but I still think flat points value for ships is a better way to go... in the case of a ship of a certain level (battleship, cruiser, destroyer etc) being unbalanced, you can adjust the points slightly. Fleet allocation means you ONLY can make big adjusts, not small ones. You lose the flexability of small adjustments. Makes campaign production & resource collection hardier as well.
starting a 2261 campaign... Should I buy the new book, or is Sky Full of Stars sufficient...?
Thanks!
[Just had my first game last night.]
===
Two (uneducated) comments-
1. Ships do not exist in isolation. A Skirmish level saggi might be unbalanced; but in a background respecting list containing say an Omega, the underpowered Omega balances out the Saggie. You have to look at the entire fleet to determine balance.
2. Points value v. Fleet allocation. Fleet allocation is an interesting way of doing things; but I still think flat points value for ships is a better way to go... in the case of a ship of a certain level (battleship, cruiser, destroyer etc) being unbalanced, you can adjust the points slightly. Fleet allocation means you ONLY can make big adjusts, not small ones. You lose the flexability of small adjustments. Makes campaign production & resource collection hardier as well.
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
Armageddeon replaces the entire EA list with three seperate lists. The early years, which covers up until just after the Minbari War. the Third Age, which covers up to 2262 or so, and Crusade, which covers everything after that. A number of ships have had their stats and/or priority levels changed too.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
SFoS and Armageddon are must haves if you want to be up to date tbh. Armageddon possibly less so, though if you want to play EA Id say it IS a must have
Not true actually, in a system where choices are limited this is true to some degree but in a fleet where choice is (completely) free, you simply don't take any of the underpowered ships and load up on the overpowered ones. Even in lists with limitations, you still "always" take the maximum number of overpowered ships and minimum number allowed of underpowered ones.Epaminondas said:
(all of this assuming you want to create a powerful list)
Thats what im trying to broadcast all the time.
A restriction/limit -based system only means, people will flock to overpowered ships even more (Its only the allowed 2-3) and simply take the next best ships afterwards, and underpowered ships still wont see the table in real tourneys.
Playing a fun army, just for the pure fun, doesnt count, youre effectivel< doing friendly games in a tourney atmosphere, cause ou have taken winning out of the equation.
A restriction/limit -based system only means, people will flock to overpowered ships even more (Its only the allowed 2-3) and simply take the next best ships afterwards, and underpowered ships still wont see the table in real tourneys.
Playing a fun army, just for the pure fun, doesnt count, youre effectivel< doing friendly games in a tourney atmosphere, cause ou have taken winning out of the equation.
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