Whatever happened to the EPIC system? MJD - is it adandoned?

[Anonymous]

There is always a difficulty with role playing adventures dealing with issues of "railroading" - or making sure the adventure/story works without making the players feel like they are not in control. There are several solutions to this but I thought that the definitive one was the EPIC system developed by Traveller's own Grandfather Marc Miller.
MJD of Avenger,Mongoose, etc produced several excellent adventures using this EPIC system a few years back, double statted for T20 and CT. In these, the idea of KEY scenes and OTHER scenes was brillaintly executed to make superb role playing experiences which meant that the plot worked but the players didn't feel bullied down a particular path. Who can forget the unexpected arrival of the System Defense Boat above the breached dam or the rescue of the Ursa from the river? Not me.

Unfortunately- this structure seems to have disappeared altogether now. Is it gone forever? I though it was the ultimate solution to an age old problem - particularly the way it was executed by MJD in the above mentioned cases.

 

[EDG]

I think Martin just used Marc's EPIC concept. My understanding is that supposedly it was developed originally for T5, so if that ever comes out then you might see more of it then.

It's ironic that Marc came up with it (if it really is an anti-railroading concept), given that he was guilty of doing a LOT of railroading in his early CT adventures.

 

[captainjack23]

I think Martin just used Marc's EPIC concept. My understanding is that supposedly it was developed originally for T5, so if that ever comes out then you might see more of it then.

It's ironic that Marc came up with it (if it really is an anti-railroading concept), given that he was guilty of doing a LOT of railroading in his early CT adventures.

Can't argue with that, most early adventures were written around a miniatures game scenario style. Still, its clear that EPIC is an attempt (as was the DGP nugget format) to change that. And, if it's by an early offender, "how much greater then is the wonder of a sinner redeemed " ?

 

[Anonymous]

I think Martin just used Marc's EPIC concept. My understanding is that supposedly it was developed originally for T5, so if that ever comes out then you might see more of it then.

It's ironic that Marc came up with it (if it really is an anti-railroading concept), given that he was guilty of doing a LOT of railroading in his early CT adventures.

Yes, Martin used Marc's concept. It has been around for a long time, way before T5 was conceived. The way it was adopted by Martin in those adventures was very effective, I thought.

Its not really anti-railroading as such (the only way to do that is for the ref to constantly make stuff up in response to the players - and that doesn't usually make for good storylines/adventures) but a way of structuring adventures which minimses the feeling of being railroaded while retaining good drama.

 

[MJD]

I was never keen on it, though it had some good points and was certainly a step in the right direction. Could be hard to shoehorn some kinds of adventure into it though.

I used it because QLI did, but i never grabbed me enough to use afterwards.

 

[Anonymous]

I was never keen on it, though it had some good points and was certainly a step in the right direction. Could be hard to shoehorn some kinds of adventure into it though.

I used it because QLI did, but i never grabbed me enough to use afterwards.

Ah, I see, thanks. I thought it worked really well. Maybe I just liked those types of adventures.

 

[MJD]

I made it work, sometimes with great effort.

It's a good idea, just not suitable for all kinds of adentures.

This seems to be a quest on Marc's part - to classify and codify everything into standard formats and have a standardised system for everything.

I'm not convinced it's achievable; some adventures really needed a different approach than epic and didn't fit ell at all.

 

[MJD]

EPIC sort of became associated with QLI and is therefore distasteful to me. I'm not 100% convinced of its merits but I might have been willing to give it another go (I can make it work.... it's not as easy as it looks for some kinds of adventure) were it not for the QLI connection.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, its hard not to notice Marc's compulsion to classify - visible going back to early CT (a table for probabilities for results of 2d6 roll??? :wink

I entirely understand the angry hangover from QLI.

The EPIC thing seemed really good to me though - the set piece key scenes are brilliantly dramatic and make for a standout session of gaming - but for the sake of narrative and pacing - you don't want that every week. In my opinion they serve the ref, and players very well. My most memorable gaming experiences of recent years have come from those adventures. Thanks for them anyway, they were appreciated as your work irrespective of bitter tastes and disputes.

 

[MJD]

I've used a similar idea of episodes and scenes for some kinds of adventure before- it works well for the right adventure. The 'nugget' idea also works well.

I just found that slavishly following a format was not always ideal

 

[MJD]

I tried to use a variant of EPIC for some of the QLI adventures but I seem to remember it was vetoed for not following the format. I think QLI were on a crusade to make EPIC the standard form for all adventures or something.

 

[tneva82]

Out of curiosity is there anywhere information about what the epic system is then? Ie how it works?

 

[MJD]

There was a guide to it in the adventures that used it.

 

[mtaylor]

I wrote 7 adventures for QLI in EPIC format. As MJD implies, it was a bitch of a system to write in - a real nightmare.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

I can see the merits in the ideas behind the EPIC format, but they need evolving - something that was not allowed....

 

[MJD]

It would not be too hard to create a more flexible version. Thne main problem with EPIC was that it was so rigid. In the end, it was a form of railroading since you had to progess through the ey scenes in order - fine for cinematic adventures but not always applicable.

 

[Anonymous]

It would not be too hard to create a more flexible version. Thne main problem with EPIC was that it was so rigid. In the end, it was a form of railroading since you had to progess through the ey scenes in order - fine for cinematic adventures but not always applicable.

That would be good
I guess I do like a good cinematic adventure - especially in a sci-fi setting.
I suppose some sort of railroading is necessary if there is going to be a story. From a ref and players point of view what it acheived was a feeling of excellent narrative without a FEELING of too much railroading - especially if there were enough non-key scenes and the key scenes didn't just follow one from the other. It seems to work very well when there are a couple of interesting unrelated or semi-related sidebars for each world stop and a key scene on, maybe 2 out of three worlds?
I loved those "cluster" adventures.

Anyway. I want starfall.

 

[FreeTrav]

It would not be too hard to create a more flexible version. Thne main problem with EPIC was that it was so rigid. In the end, it was a form of railroading since you had to progess through the ey scenes in order - fine for cinematic adventures but not always applicable.

Do you feel that the DGP "nugget" format suffered from the same flaw? Or would EPIC have worked better if it were more like that?

... actually... I think a better question might be "If you were designing a format for Adventures, and with the understanding that there probably can't be a 'one size fits all' structure, what would YOUR preferred format look like?"

You've spent years writing adventures in Other People's Formats; here's an opportunity to describe yours, and maybe get Other People to write in it!

<< Waits with his "Tell us a stowy, Unca Martin!" face on >>

 

[MJD]

If you want Starfall, buy Far Avalon from Comstar. Prety much everything from Starfall was reworked into that.

 

[MJD]

Do you feel that the DGP "nugget" format suffered from the same flaw? Or would EPIC have worked better if it were more like that?

Nugget format was more flexible.

... actually... I think a better question might be "If you were designing a format for Adventures, and with the understanding that there probably can't be a 'one size fits all' structure, what would YOUR preferred format look like?"

Crap... ask me a hard one, OK?

You've spent years writing adventures in Other People's Formats; here's an opportunity to describe yours, and maybe get Other People to write in it!

<< Waits with his "Tell us a stowy, Unca Martin!" face on >>