what book are the stats for the K'Tan in?

[Locutus9956]

Way to miss the point there....

Look at what wins the fight, its mainly the use of the initiative sinking early on. (also I didnt bother working out probable crits, on average the first turns firing from the Prefect WOULD result in at least one crit)

Secondly I effectively gave the Prefect 2 of the 3 initiatives. The final turns intitiatve makes little difference with the ships in the positions and states they are in. And if you will not I specifically gave the Nanrs the most VITAL inititative, which was being generous to give them every edge.

Thridly, no frazis and it would have gone the other way, in a fleet game I somehow suspect they would be less of an issue....


and Lastly, I REALLY dont think this is anything to do with the capabilitites of the Ka'Tan as much as the fact thats its two ships vs 1 in ACTA pretty much ALWAYS win. (if theyre equivalent points) no matter the 'relative cheesiness'. Play a few in pracice. The Ka'Tan isnt cheesy. The SWARM fleet IS slightly.

The prefect is bad and no mistake but even then I will not go as far as some people anyway there. I don't think its broken, its a bit too good and can use some nerfing for sure, but its not the old Sag or the tournament Shadow Hunter.....

 

[katadder]

i'm not, its an exmaple of init. +3 versus +2 is not a whole world of differance in 2d6.

 

[Burger]

Each +1 on the initiative gives you roughly 10% more chance of winning, up to +4.

+0: 50/50
+1: 62/58
+2: 74/26
+3: 83/17
+4: 90/10
+5: 94/6
+6: 97/3
+7: 99/1
+8: 99.6/0.4
+9: 99.9/0.1 (Pak'ma'ra vs Shadows anyone )

 

[Locutus9956]

Lets try another example anyway out of curiosity. Two TOROTHAS vs the Prefect...... Same set up.

Turn 1 Minbari win initiative.

Prefect Advances to 25" and DOESNT CAF so he can split fire to maximise anti stealth chances.

Minbari close bulkheads and move up to 13" Away. Prefect splits its beam between both targets needing 5+ to bypass stealth on both. Lets be extra generous and say for the sake of argument the one he targets with 1 AD passes stealth. Lets say 3 hits (a fairly average SAP beam AD vs hull 4...) so 6 pts of dmg and crew. 2 of the hull hits will be stopped by the bulkeheads though.

Next turn. Lets say this time the Prefect gets lucky and wins initiative. First Torotha goes all power to engines an parks itself an inch beind the Prefect.The prefect attempts to come about (if its got any sense anyway.... ) but lets say it fails so it advances 4" and turns 45 degrees to side arce the overshooting Torotha.

The other Toroth now maneuvers to park itself direcly behind the Prefect at 45 degrees to it (which it can do easily). The Prefect is now only 5" from the toroth in its side arc so passes stealth on a 3+ and fires its twin arrays. Getting an average 3 hits to put that Torotha to 7 hull 9 crew. Still fine. Both torothas fire their aft guns for a staggering total of 2 damage.... whoop!

Ok its now past 5 so Im going home and cant be bothered to work the rest out, but from this position Im almost certain the Torothas will win. They can keep at leat 1 in the Prefets aft arc most of the time from this point (and more likely they can keep BOTH there (or at very least out of its FRONT arc and over 8" range) It may take a while but they WILL win.

So does this make the Torothas broken too?

 

[Burger]

NeRf TeH tOrOtHa!!!1!1!1oneone

 

[katadder]

well your starting torotha is stealth 4+ to pass, not 5+. I wouldnt split a 3AD beam anyway, might as well go whole hog on it. if you get the stealth you get the stealth, if you dont you dont. I would even CAF too. which i would say if you pass stealth you then get 3 hits on 2s (with rerolls), 2 hits on 3s, 1 hit on 4s, and maybe one more but we will be happy at 6 hits.
thats 11 damage/10 crew and a crit which obviously can be lowered to 9/10 dam/crew plus the crit.
if you fail stealth its gonna hurt sure.
also in a prefect versus torotha game why would the prefect advance? I would all stop if i lost init 1st turn from 30" away. I got range they dont. so the torothas could APTE to 13" away still admittedly but then they have got close blast doors and if you see one then with your beam you would probably cripple it.

 

[Locutus9956]

yes Ill grant you that one, I forgot the -1 changed to 20" but your still fairly likely to miss, hance the beam split. In either case the result is more or less the same on the following turn. Even if it gets lucky and blows one of the Torothas away immediately its still going to have one tailling it out of its weapons reach from that point onwards more or less.

No matter how good a ship is, even one as overpowered as the Prefect, if its on its own versus a more manueverable opponent its going to lose by virtue of not being able to return fire!

 

[Hash]

No matter how good a ship is, even one as overpowered as the Prefect, if its on its own versus a more manueverable opponent its going to lose by virtue of not being able to return fire!

Slight aside but at Gaelcon 2006, Digger challenged me to a 1 ship vs. 1 ship battle - my TOURNAMENT rules Shadow Ship (War) vs. a G'Vrahn (Armageddon had very recently come out then). How I laughed. I explained that he stood very little chance - he would get, at most, one good shot...still he was up for it so I gave it go. I reckon the Frazis did more damage to the Shadow Ship than the G'Vrahn! (I got so irritated with the fighters that I started to concentrate my molecular slicer on trying to take them out!

Its an extreme example of Locutus' point - as the Shadow Ship had SM AND a turreted weapon so didn't care too much about facing, but I would agree that a more maneuverable opponent (particularly one with a high initiative bonus) has a considerable advantage in 1 vs. 1 battles.

 

[CZuschlag]

Hash -- perfectly correct.

If I had to choose one ship where no-maneouver didn't make any impact, it would be a Saggitarius near a planet. I think with this opponent, maneouver doesn't make any difference at all, just initiative. You don't outrange it, you don't avoid its arc for long (only reload turns, at worst).

A Chronos might be able to do something similar.

It takes a pretty extreme example to make a 1-on-1 fight not about maneouver, now, doesn't it?

 

[Locutus9956]

Chronos can indeed do something similar Ive tried that one properly and a Chronos 1 on 1 can take down a Primus. Nearly every time! The only times it didnt work was where the primus got lucky with its opening shot and blew the engines off or something.

 

[CZuschlag]

Finally, got it!

I knew I had made some sort of mistake.

The game should be at worst level, as the less maneouverable ship has to be able to recognize that its advantages rely At The Edges Of The Board(!).

Take your first shot, and then head to the nearest corner. Then, All Stop and Finally All Stop and Pivot to face out of the corner.

Using this against lightly armed opponents means that you CAN get second and third battle passes; a major factor in survival!

Planets and asteroids make this all the easier.

Forgot this element; it's important!

I knew I had miscalculated somewhere.

 

[Celisasu]

The Toratha is broken. :lol: That made my day.

 

[Nerroth]

For a second there, I was worried that if the ship class was K'tan (not Ka'tan) that people would be calling their ships Nightbringer, Deciever, Void Dragon and Outsider...


Gary

 

[Celisasu]

For a second there, I was worried that if the ship class was K'tan (not Ka'tan) that people would be calling their ships Nightbringer, Deciever, Void Dragon and Outsider...


Gary

Don't worry. I'd much rather name my ships Ham&Cheese, Mustard&Mayo, and Grilled Cheese.