what book are the stats for the K'Tan in?

having lots of beam weapons can make life a bit tricky ifyou cant line them up, which is why the ISA fleet is good, there arent that many beam weapons, only the lightning cannon and on whitestars, which does not matter too much as the cannon is not used that much, and the white stars are agile enough to get a couple of beam shots off once in a while. But some fleets like EA have quite a lot, so all you have to do is outflank or get behind them and youve caused a lot of problems because they struggle to line up their beam weapons.
 
Personally I think that the Ka'Tan is far superior to a Ka'Toc - certainly not something that most players would take a mix of - Ka'Tan vs. Ka'Toc is almost as much of a no-brainer (for a beardy powergamer) than a Prefect over a Centurion.

It does depend on the PL level though! For example playing at 5 point Battle I would MUCH rather have 10 Prefects that 15 Ka'Tans...but then you defeat the 2 for the price of 1 advantage that, while making the choice of fleets simple, tends to just horribly unbalance the game when a ship is only *slightly* better than it should be.

Most fleets would be balanced (or at least more so) if you changed the standard game from 5pt Raid to 1pt War or 1pt Armageddon. The more FAP you have the more (potentially) unbalanced the game but that's just my personal opinion.
 
Oh for the love of smeg......

This is one thing that REALLY grinds my gears in wargaming.

People are far FAR too quick to throw their hands up in horror and scream 'broken' at any ship that performs well.

As for comparing the Ka'Tan to the Prefect?!?!??! Are you NUTS?!

Theres more to ships than just the number of beam dice they get!

Lerts stop and compare the two ships for a minute:

Fire arcs. Both ships are basically forward arc only. Theyve got some secondary weapons in the side and rear but theyre really nothing to write home about so I wont really factor them in here.

Weapon range: The Primus can engage properly at 12" and can start firing at you from 25". The Ka'Tan can engage fully at 15" but isnt really much of a threat before that point. Both ships are fairly fast though so can engage when they like for the most part in range terms.

Manueverability: The Prefect is SLIGHTLY more maneuverable due to being slower but in practice its WEAPONS are quite a bit easier to bring to bear due to their forward arc.

Firepower: The Prefect packs slightly more than double the forward firepower than 2 Ka'Tans. Sure more of the Ka'Tans stuff is beam but dont forget, the Prefect with its forward arc can both use its stuff every turn (normally) without needing to win initiative, but can also concentrate fire. That makes a HUGE difference.

Toughness: 2 Ka'Tans DO have slightly more hit points than 1 Priums, but theyre hull 5 compared to the hull 6 of the Prefect. Massive, MASSIVE, difference. Also it only takes 15 damage to cripple one of the Ka'Tans and start reducing the effeciveness of that little team. 20 points and one is gone the firepower of that raid point worth of ships is halved (and your down an initiative sink for your boresights). It takes 27 points to CRIPPLE the Prefect and start reducing its firepower.


Really if you think the Ka'Tan is even CLOSE to the prefect in terms of wrongness though, play a fight between 2 Ka'Tans and a Prefect and see what happens. Hell try a full on 10 Ka'Tan bat squad vs 5 Prefects (actually that Id like to try sometime, could be interesting).

The trouble with the 'Bat Squad' really though is NOT the Ka'Tan/Ka'Toc in my oppinion its the way ACTA works in general. It tends to favour swarm fleets becuase of the way initiaitve works. ANY swarm of decent Skirmish ships is a nasty prospect:

Cases in point: 10 Saggs (even with the now fixed version (which I dont think are broken any more are still very very good), 10 Olympus, 10 Ka'Tans, 10 Warbirds, 10 Drakh Raiders, 10 Maximus (actually thats one I havent actually seen tried... could be very very nasty, all that hull 6, interceptory uber toughness? Where do I sign up :P)

In fact I reckon we should do tourney on vassal or even in real life some time of 'skirmish gank fleet playoffs' everyone builds a fleet of 10 of one skirmish vessel and see who wins (it would have to be a friendly tourney though not for prizes or anything as I dont think that would be strictly fair!) (and I still reckon the 10 saggs will spank all before them (though the NBS is very very nasty still)
 
10 Skirmish fleet? I wonder if 10 Torothas could come close to cutting it in that instance?

You also forgot to mention the Frazi flights that the Bat Squad would bring to the fight. That is a significant amount of vanilla AD flying the prefects way.
 
They will certainly have the potential to cause plenty of hurt with those Molecular disruptors. The lack of fighters in most fleets might actually mean they survive to engage for once.

Though I suspect the Vree could provide an interesting dark horse selection or two.
 
Locutus9956 said:
Oh for the love of smeg......

This is one thing that REALLY grinds my gears in wargaming.

People are far FAR too quick to throw their hands up in horror and scream 'broken' at any ship that performs well.

As for comparing the Ka'Tan to the Prefect?!?!??! Are you NUTS?!

Theres more to ships than just the number of beam dice they get!

Lerts stop and compare the two ships for a minute:

Fire arcs. Both ships are basically forward arc only. Theyve got some secondary weapons in the side and rear but theyre really nothing to write home about so I wont really factor them in here.

Weapon range: The Primus can engage properly at 12" and can start firing at you from 25". The Ka'Tan can engage fully at 15" but isnt really much of a threat before that point. Both ships are fairly fast though so can engage when they like for the most part in range terms.

Manueverability: The Prefect is SLIGHTLY more maneuverable due to being slower but in practice its WEAPONS are quite a bit easier to bring to bear due to their forward arc.

Firepower: The Prefect packs slightly more than double the forward firepower than 2 Ka'Tans. Sure more of the Ka'Tans stuff is beam but dont forget, the Prefect with its forward arc can both use its stuff every turn (normally) without needing to win initiative, but can also concentrate fire. That makes a HUGE difference.

Toughness: 2 Ka'Tans DO have slightly more hit points than 1 Priums, but theyre hull 5 compared to the hull 6 of the Prefect. Massive, MASSIVE, difference. Also it only takes 15 damage to cripple one of the Ka'Tans and start reducing the effeciveness of that little team. 20 points and one is gone the firepower of that raid point worth of ships is halved (and your down an initiative sink for your boresights). It takes 27 points to CRIPPLE the Prefect and start reducing its firepower.


Really if you think the Ka'Tan is even CLOSE to the prefect in terms of wrongness though, play a fight between 2 Ka'Tans and a Prefect and see what happens. Hell try a full on 10 Ka'Tan bat squad vs 5 Prefects (actually that Id like to try sometime, could be interesting).

The trouble with the 'Bat Squad' really though is NOT the Ka'Tan/Ka'Toc in my oppinion its the way ACTA works in general. It tends to favour swarm fleets becuase of the way initiaitve works. ANY swarm of decent Skirmish ships is a nasty prospect:

Cases in point: 10 Saggs (even with the now fixed version (which I dont think are broken any more are still very very good), 10 Olympus, 10 Ka'Tans, 10 Warbirds, 10 Drakh Raiders, 10 Maximus (actually thats one I havent actually seen tried... could be very very nasty, all that hull 6, interceptory uber toughness? Where do I sign up :P)

In fact I reckon we should do tourney on vassal or even in real life some time of 'skirmish gank fleet playoffs' everyone builds a fleet of 10 of one skirmish vessel and see who wins (it would have to be a friendly tourney though not for prizes or anything as I dont think that would be strictly fair!) (and I still reckon the 10 saggs will spank all before them (though the NBS is very very nasty still)
Click to expand...

Well said Locutus ;)
 
Reaverman said:
Burger said:
Silvereye said:
10 Skirmish fleet? I wonder if 10 Torothas could come close to cutting it in that instance?
Click to expand...
I was actually considering trying that ;)
Click to expand...

Now you are talking about an undergunned ship, which is in serious need of up gunning.
Click to expand...
Exactly... if 10 Torotha can do well then it proves that 10 of anything can do well!
 
Reaverman said:
Locutus9956 said:
Oh for the love of smeg......

This is one thing that REALLY grinds my gears in wargaming.

People are far FAR too quick to throw their hands up in horror and scream 'broken' at any ship that performs well.

As for comparing the Ka'Tan to the Prefect?!?!??! Are you NUTS?!

Theres more to ships than just the number of beam dice they get!

Lerts stop and compare the two ships for a minute:

Fire arcs. Both ships are basically forward arc only. Theyve got some secondary weapons in the side and rear but theyre really nothing to write home about so I wont really factor them in here.

Weapon range: The Primus can engage properly at 12" and can start firing at you from 25". The Ka'Tan can engage fully at 15" but isnt really much of a threat before that point. Both ships are fairly fast though so can engage when they like for the most part in range terms.

Manueverability: The Prefect is SLIGHTLY more maneuverable due to being slower but in practice its WEAPONS are quite a bit easier to bring to bear due to their forward arc.

Firepower: The Prefect packs slightly more than double the forward firepower than 2 Ka'Tans. Sure more of the Ka'Tans stuff is beam but dont forget, the Prefect with its forward arc can both use its stuff every turn (normally) without needing to win initiative, but can also concentrate fire. That makes a HUGE difference.

Toughness: 2 Ka'Tans DO have slightly more hit points than 1 Priums, but theyre hull 5 compared to the hull 6 of the Prefect. Massive, MASSIVE, difference. Also it only takes 15 damage to cripple one of the Ka'Tans and start reducing the effeciveness of that little team. 20 points and one is gone the firepower of that raid point worth of ships is halved (and your down an initiative sink for your boresights). It takes 27 points to CRIPPLE the Prefect and start reducing its firepower.


Really if you think the Ka'Tan is even CLOSE to the prefect in terms of wrongness though, play a fight between 2 Ka'Tans and a Prefect and see what happens. Hell try a full on 10 Ka'Tan bat squad vs 5 Prefects (actually that Id like to try sometime, could be interesting).

The trouble with the 'Bat Squad' really though is NOT the Ka'Tan/Ka'Toc in my oppinion its the way ACTA works in general. It tends to favour swarm fleets becuase of the way initiaitve works. ANY swarm of decent Skirmish ships is a nasty prospect:

Cases in point: 10 Saggs (even with the now fixed version (which I dont think are broken any more are still very very good), 10 Olympus, 10 Ka'Tans, 10 Warbirds, 10 Drakh Raiders, 10 Maximus (actually thats one I havent actually seen tried... could be very very nasty, all that hull 6, interceptory uber toughness? Where do I sign up :P)

In fact I reckon we should do tourney on vassal or even in real life some time of 'skirmish gank fleet playoffs' everyone builds a fleet of 10 of one skirmish vessel and see who wins (it would have to be a friendly tourney though not for prizes or anything as I dont think that would be strictly fair!) (and I still reckon the 10 saggs will spank all before them (though the NBS is very very nasty still)
Click to expand...

Well said Locutus ;)
Click to expand...

not really at all.
the prefect. can get its shot off if it goes second admittedly, but writing off the rear firepower? plus the 2 ka'tans get more firepower combined at rnage 20" as well.
also forgetting the rear firepower? ka'tans get a turn where they get 8AD on the prefect (staying out of matter cannon range) to the 3AD return. then the ka'tans next turn APTE. the prefect has no rear firepower the ka'tans have 16AD between them, plus another 8AD from frazis. not something to be ignored at all.
its side and rear guns that make a hell of a differance and people forget, and its these weapons that allowed a dargan of mine to take on 2 whitestars by itself.
oh and on criplping, if you crippled one ka'tan thats leaves them with only 6AD of beams (twice the number still) and 16AD of forward firepower. to cripple them both takes 30 damage, leaving them with 4AD of beams and 16AD of pulse cannons. compared to if you criplpe the prefect it has to choose one weapon.
 
true, which is why its a fleet game not single combat, and why you take scouts to lock on for your bat squads. I have had 12AD of rerolling beams shot at my tertius remember ;)
 
Yet in your rebuttal of Ka'Tan vs Prefect your assuming that theres nothing else on ITS side. Asuming it has no initiative sinking and no scouts of its own (for which the centauri have Corvans, arguably the best scout in the game with the possible exception of the Vaarl)

But anyway to answer your counterpoints:

Lets take a hypothetical situation of these two forces deploying 30" apart facing each other.

The Centauri are favourites to win the initiative. So the first turn one of the Ka'Tans will probably all stop and stay still (it wont be able to line up its boresights so it makes sense to draw the Prefect in as much as possible for its partner).

The Prefect then advances 5" and concentrates all firepower on the SECOND Ka'Tan (that hasnt moved yet).

The second Ka'Tan has no chance whatsoever to get out of the Prefects fire arc so it advances to 15" and boresights the Prefect.

The two flights of Frazis from the Prefects (assuming they were deployed initially) Zoom forward as fast as they can but theyre still 20" away)

Now the prefect fires. Asuming average dice rolls it will score 5 or 6 hits with its battle laser doing, if were generous, 12 points of damage. So discounting crits for the moment (though chances are there WILL be at least 1 from 5 or 6 hits) the Ka'Tan is hurt but other than that, is more or less fine. It's turn.

The Ka'Tan fires back scoring, on average.... 2 or 3 hits. Again being generous the Prefect takes 6 points of damage. So turn 1 and not alot has happened.

NEXT!

Lets suppose the Narns get lucky and win initiative for this one. The primus moves forward its minimum move of 4" putting it now 11" from the cloesest Ka'Tan and 21" from the other one, which it DOESNT concentrate fire on (to leave its options open with its matter cannons)

The closest Ka'Tan can either move forward 5" and boresight, and fire everything hoping to cripple/take out the Prefect before it gets annihilated or overshoot and tailgun it with its aftt piddlyguns. Let's be reckless and go forward and boresight.

The other Ka'Tan moves up to 15" range and also boresights. The Frazis close again but still are 9" away.

Firing ensues. First the damaged and very close Ka'Tan takes its shot, its beams again scoring about 6 pts of damage. It also fires it's 8 dice of light pulse cannon, inflicting, if were going to be generous again, at most 2 hits for another 2 damage. So thats now a total of 14 damage to the prefect. Its not worried. The Prefect fires everything at the damaged Ka'Tan then.

Its matter cannon scores on average 3 hits for 6 points of damage and its beams score, without the benefit of CAF only about 4 hits for 8 points of damage. Howver thats still 14 points of damage which destroys the Ka'Tan (it will also exlode on a 4+ damaging the the Prefect slightly but lets assume it doesnt for simplicities sake).

The second Ka'Tan then fires its beams for another 6 points to the Prefect, bringing it up to 22 dmg! Getting close to crippled but the Narns are down to 1 ship now...

Ok now at this point lets assume the centauri win initiative again (I was being generous giving the narns 1 turn of initiative as it was!)

The Ka'Tan can now either go forward and get shot or try to come about and get out of arc (which wont work frankly) or can APTE 15" putting itself RIGHT in front of the Prefect. (this will force the prefect to all stop but on the other hand means no boresight. It does so anyway.

The prefect, needless to say DOES all stop. The two frazi flights fly behind the Prefect and fire first. Both Frazis firing 8AD gives 2 points of damage.

Prefect fires then, scoring 14 points of damage again with its main guns, then fires its twin arrays scoring another 3 points of damage. So thats 17 points of damage and the Ka'Tan is crippled.

The crippled Ka'Tan fires one of its boresights and its pulse cannons (1 weapon per arc). Being generous it gets 2 hits with its laser for 4 points and then another 2 with its pulses. so thats 8 points in total including the frazis. 30 Damage and crippled and skeleton crewed.

Next turn the Ka'Tan all stops and moves to JUST past the Prefect. The Prefect for its part moves forward 4" and turns 45 degrees to fire its side guns at the Ka'Tan. The Frazis stay on its tail and inflict another 2 points. The Prefect fires its side twin array, probably not doing QUITE enough to finish it off. The Katan fires its side guns for another 2 damage. 1 Point off dead.

Next turn the Frazis finish the Prefect.

Ok then, now at first glance the prefect is beaten but bear in mind this is with us HANDING initiative to the Narns on turn 2 so they can make their big strike and also with the frazis unnoposed.

In a normal game if the Narns used just the Bat fleet they would lack the emines to clear the ineveitable Centauri fighters who would rip the Frazis appart. Also as I suggested originally ACTA tends to favour quanitity over quality the fact the prefect even came close to winning without even factoring in crits when outnumbered says it all really.

If you run the same little scenario with, say, 2 Drazi Warbirds, or 2 Saggitarius I suspect they might also win but only due to the swarm advantage.
 
so with the ka'tans starting 30" away they still win :)
and they not always gonna start that far away.
plus theres only 1 differance in the initiative values (+2 v +3) so the init can go either way.
kind of proves a point really. 2 ka'tans can beat supposedly the cheesiest ship in the game and thats with you giving the prefect 3/4 of the initiative too.
 
katadder said:
so with the ka'tans starting 30" away they still win :)
and they not always gonna start that far away.
quote]

Why not, the winner dictates where the ships are deployed. You could deploy your Narn, and then have the Centauri deploy in the diagonal bottom opposite of the board. On a 6x4 board thats a lot of space!
Click to expand...
 
true, but again who says the prefect wins init? 1 differance after all on 2d6 isnt a huge amount. hell have played a combined abbai/centauri fleet against EA crusade and the abbais -2 still won init every turn over the EAs +2. 2d6 gives alot of possibilities and 1 differance in that isnt alot.
so now we giving the centauri 4 inits out of 5 if they win deployment init too.
 
katadder said:
true, but again who says the prefect wins init? 1 differance after all on 2d6 isnt a huge amount. hell have played a combined abbai/centauri fleet against EA crusade and the abbais -2 still won init every turn over the EAs +2. 2d6 gives alot of possibilities and 1 differance in that isnt alot.
so now we giving the centauri 4 inits out of 5 if they win deployment init too.
Click to expand...

We are not talking about EA/Centauri. We are talking about a Prefect vs 2 Ka'tans. Stop confusing the issue!
 
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