Ways to fight stealth

[Locutus9956]

New rules that keep at least most of the ship stats the same would be far preferable IMO. The suggestion does seem fine except for cases where the stealth score is lower than the hull. So maybe just give those ships a stealth boost? Troligan to Stealth 5+, Neshatan to 5+.

Well like I said, even without modifying hull, I think a flat +1 to stealth across the board might do it actually (and imo would work better for alot of other ships too)

I'm a little leery of bulk boosting all the stealth scores, especially a boost of the Troligan from 3+ to 5+. All it takes is an Asteroid field and your opponent has to jump through lots of hoops to have a prayer of a single hit and that would be drastically mitigated by the high hull or high stealth. Even more so the Leshath at 7+ which means you've got only two ways to attempt to reduce the stealth and at the same time it can cut the entirety of an opponent's stealth. It would make a fleet of Leshath very very deadly (not saying the B word). That 6+/7+ tipping point would need to be watched very carefully and balanced with all the ways to boost stealth and all the ways to reduce stealth (especially since at least one of the ways to reduce stealth requires you to be able to target it to begin with).
EDIT: The big reason I'd watch a stealth boost carefully is because as I understand your stealth modification - a modified Stealth of 7+ will mean the ship cannot be targeted. That is in keeping with the standard Stealth score but if it's all boosted then it's that much more likely that you're going to end up in a battle where the Minbari are cruising around and annihilating the opponent and the opponent is only able to score 1 in 10 hits. Also would be careful about how far you lower hull values since there still are automatic counters for Stealth like Fighter-Base-Contact and energy mines. Little increments and lots of testing.

I think your missing the point here a little mate...

Ok: Firstly theres basically only 3 ways to BOOST stealth in the game:

1) Hide in terrain - easily countered by simply staying away from said terrain and forcing the stealth ships to bring the fight to you.
2) Long range - as most people should know its actually bloody hard to stay at long range in ACTA most of the time (except for a few races like Vree and Shadows). Also its quite easy, even for slower rances like Narn and EA to close to the magic 8" short range if they plan their moves well. Sure some ships may be designed for long range combat, but if you take those vs a stealth opponent then thats your own fault
3) Run silent. Good for scouts and things like blockade run, but it wont win you battles since doing so means you CANT SHOOT.

You might think the minbari would be 'cruising around blowing stuff up having only 1/6 shots hit them but consider, that they will have the same actual damage and crew values as they do currently, and currently most of the time 2/3 of the time ships trying to shoot them cant fire AT ALL. Also bear in mind that all it takes is for one weapon to hit them and a ship to get to 8" in most cases and all of a sudden your actually basically shooting at a hull 4 ship. With full benefit of all your traits. And of course stealth can still be LOST.

Frankly I've considered the effect the increased stealth will have and as far as I can see it should work. Try it, I think youll find if anything the Minbari will need toughening up! Even the dreaded stealth 7 of the Leshath will only mean it can use its scout abilities from long range with imunity Remember a Leshath fleet may sound scary but it cant actually HIT YOU from the ranges where its going to be untargetable (and yes it can fire at 18" but, again all it takes is you closing to 8" or ANOTHER ship closing to 8" and shooting it once, or scout lock and suddenly its hitable (and remember the Leshath IS supposed to be basiclally the stealthiest thing in the galaxy (aside from the Ancient 'Dark Knife' (which is frankly SUPPOSED to be sick and wrong ))

 

[Burger]

Remember for your house rule you'll also have to consider the effect on stealth ships other than the Minbari. Vaarl, Corvan, Rutarian etc. Though I can't see any problems with just adding 1 to all their stealth scores too.

 

[Sulfurdown]

Active counter measures are the Scout, Range, and Prior Hit. Scouts are a 50/50 check. Range is interesting to control, I'd think fairly dependent on the races involved. Prior Hit is probably the easiest to secure now that I think about it with all the races now that use mine weapons and the boost in fighter numbers (In Annihilation Great Maker help the Minbari versus the PMR!).

So my concerns might be over drawn. I'm coming from this perspective: the current campaign I'm fielding Drakh versus (among others) the Minbari. Do to fluke there are a lot of targets with EM distortions and dust clouds. In 1E it's not that big of an impact but in 2E - that would mean that all those ships are getting +2 Stealth across the board in that HDC/EMD (sucktastic combo btw).

I can't say if the +1 boost across the board really will live up to my fears - I'm hoping that the next time I get a loophole in the campaign and play a 1-off against the Minbari rather then a campaign game I can talk him into trying out your revised Stealth rules. (Or maybe I can get him to load up Vassal and give it a test.)

 

[Locutus9956]

Yep I thought of that I've looked through the fleet lists and cant see a single stealth ship that for ANY race that just adding 1 to the stealth rating woudnt work well for

Pretty much every stealth scout is currently stealth 4 or 5 and hull 4. going to stealth 5 or 6 and hull 4 would be fine for them. The oracle would go to stealth 4 hull 4 (still fine)

The only other stealth ship I can think of besides scouts and minbari is the Dargan, which would go to Stealth 5 Hull 5. Again, fine

 

[Locutus9956]

So my concerns might be over drawn. I'm coming from this perspective: the current campaign I'm fielding Drakh versus (among others) the Minbari. Do to fluke there are a lot of targets with EM distortions and dust clouds. In 1E it's not that big of an impact but in 2E - that would mean that all those ships are getting +2 Stealth across the board in that HDC/EMD (sucktastic combo btw).

Well to be honest thats not hugely likely though is it? And frankly if you eneded up in that situation against Minbari with the current stealth rules I suspect youd find you would be frankly boned in any case (youd be looking at 6+ stealth rolls every time you want to shoot....)

In any case next time I get chance to play a one off Ill be trying out my alternate stealth I think (or I may play with myself (yes, yes, snigger away all you like but just plonking a few minis down on a table and playing both sides can be surprisingly enlightening when it comes to testing out theories and rules )

 

[Sulfurdown]

And frankly if you eneded up in that situation against Minbari with the current stealth rules I suspect youd find you would be frankly boned in any case (youd be looking at 6+ stealth rolls every time you want to shoot....)

Yes... yes I have. (Though more often then not it's been the learning curve and poor tactical judgement that's screwed me.)

 

[Burger]

I think that is a factor of the (IMO) broken scenery rules in 2e, TBH.

 

[Locutus9956]

I must admit thats one part of the book I havent really looked at much yet (the few games Ive played so far in 2nd Ed have been on bare tables ) Will have to have a read through...

 

[Burger]

I must admit thats one part of the book I havent really looked at much yet (the few games Ive played so far in 2nd Ed have been on bare tables ) Will have to have a read through...

Basically you can now shoot into and out of asteroid fields. When inside you gain stealth 4+, or add +2 to your existing stealth rating.

The result is a virtually invulnerable Sharkaan, using All Stop And Pivot to snipe anything within 36", and having stealth 7+ itself. Although 6 is an automatic pass vs stealth, you'll still need 6 if you use a scout or a previous ship has attacked.

 

[H]

I must admit thats one part of the book I havent really looked at much yet (the few games Ive played so far in 2nd Ed have been on bare tables ) Will have to have a read through...

Basically you can now shoot into and out of asteroid fields. When inside you gain stealth 4+, or add +2 to your existing stealth rating.

The result is a virtually invulnerable Sharkaan, using All Stop And Pivot to snipe anything within 36", and having stealth 7+ itself. Although 6 is an automatic pass vs stealth, you'll still need 6 if you use a scout or a previous ship has attacked.

I hope my minbari opponent doesn't read that, mind you, i'll drop a ton of e-mines on him if he tries it

 

[Locutus9956]

Ah I see where the comotion lies now then.. Id suggest it go down to a +1 stealth bonus personally, +2 to stealth seems a tad exessive for any version of stealth!

 

[Burger]

That's exactly what I did suggest during tier 2 playtesting, giving the above Sharkaan example. Ho hum.

 

[Sulfurdown]

Asteroid fields are 3+ or +2 (dust clouds are 2+ or +1).

It really wouldn't be that unheard of to end up with an EM Distortion or Heavy Dust Cloud (2+ or +1) and then some Asteroid Fields rolled up to end up with zones of +3 to Stealth scores.

 

[Locutus9956]

Ok how about a small adendum to the modified stealth rule then to counter this potential issue. Basically allow SHIPS in base contact to ignore stealth too?

Not sure about this one buts its one sure way of avoiding avoiding a situation where ship in a certain possition can become invincible? (and actually getting into base contact with a stealth ship is easier said than done since most of them are fairly manueverable...

Oh one other thing of note that I should clarify, under my version of stealth you have to acutally HIT the target to grant a -1 penalty not just fire at it (since that would be WAY too easy with this version)

 

[Sulfurdown]

Getting within 8" and having the Sharkaan scouted (either by scouts or energy mines) should bring it back into a reachable target. And it's not like it's going to run from it's field right away to keep it's range bonus over the Field bonus.

Knee jerk reaction on the Ships-In-Base-Contact is no. That tends to focus everybody down to racing at the opponent to get contact and then blowing it away. From a theoretical stand point not bad but I really don't like the feeling it gives me for how the gameplay/tactics would change.

 

[Burger]

Getting within 8" and having the Sharkaan scouted (either by scouts or energy mines) should bring it back into a reachable target.

If you survive the asteroids, that is... charging into asteroid fields has a high risk of blowing yourself up! If you creep in (move right up to the edge, move slowly in, move forward again) you'll be taking 3 turns of Improved Neutron Laser fire.

 

[Locutus9956]

Yeah thats my general oppinion of it as well. To be honest it shoulnt really be needed anyway. Only one ship, the Leshath would be basically untoucheable in an asteroid field and as stated its a short ranged ship so avoidable (and I would strongly suggest knocking back the stealth bonus to 1 (or just going back to 1st ed asteroids, I dont see why they needed changing!)

 

[Sulfurdown]

How big of asteroid fields to you use Burger?! :shock:

 

[ShopKeepJon]

The main problem that I have with the version of stealth being proposed is the dramatic change to play balance it would cause. If I understand it correctly, even with bumping all stealth by one point, dropping a Sharlin's stealth by two would eliminate all stealth modifiers from the shot. Under the current rules, the Sharlin would still have 3+ stealth. Your rule would cause the Sharlin to suck up 50% more fire if it's stealth is reduced in this way. Even the suggestion of lowering the hull value of ships wouldn't really help since it would then be dramatically more vulnerable to anything that ignores stealth.

I think before this would work you would have to work out this issue.

This is why I suggested a "stealth dodge". Rolling more dice makes the results more average across the game and it isn't all or nothing. Unfortunately, I thought at the time that it was too much like dodge. I agree that stealth should "feel" different.

ShopKeepJon

 

[Sulfurdown]

Something to keep in mind with the 'things that ignore stealth' category. The ships effected are either Minbari, Psi-Corp, or Scouts. What I know of the ignores Stealth crowd, they are energy mine weapons and fighters. Energy mines force your ships apart (adapt to different tactics) and are either One-Shot or not all that impressive. As for fighters - the Minbari do field the Nial or Tishat which are wicked fighters. Both the the main stealth using fleets have superb fighters to end that threat unless you're fighting the Gaim or 'possibly' earth alliance. Either way the fighters need base contact and most of their weapons aren't truely frightening so it's only the reduction in stealth they provide that would be the main fear. It might require a tweak in the style of play but I'm thinking that it's do-able.

-1 Hull, +1 Stealth and tested-tested-tested?