Ways to fight stealth

[Burger]

Eugh, sounds a bit complicated

Better to work out the to-hit-hull and to-break-stealth scores, decide if you're firing against hull or stealth, and roll. Going back and comparing original hull score then seems like a step backwards.

It does make sense for precise to not work when going against steath, I agree. But in the example given, a precise weapon would be better than a SAP precise weapon. That is just wrong.

 

[Locutus9956]

Aye I know what you mean, out of the other possibilities, Id lean towards always letting precice work, after all your going to hit less due to stealth in the first place...

That said we could make it: work out the to hit stealth, if its LOWER than the hull value (unmodified) your firing at hull. Period.

If that were the case, a ship reduced to stealth 3 with a hull value of 4 thats shot at with an SAP weapon would be hit on a 2. Which actually sort of makes sense in some ways (basically one stealth drops below the actual hull score youve got enough of a lock on that stealth is basically bypassed and your rolling against an essentially stealthless ship).

In fact Im quite liking that idea...

So BASICALLY:

1. Work out modified Stealth Score.
2. If modified Stealth score is = or > Hull, your firing against stealth all weapons need this number to hit and dont benefit from precice. Beams still CONTINUE to hit on 4+ but dont get benefit of precice.
3. If Hull > modified stealth, stealth is 'beaten' and you are firing against hull. Work out target number as though stealth didn't exist. All such attacks benefit from precice etc normally.

Fighters in base contact, and other effects that ignore stealth (such as Emines, Jump point shockwaves, Exploding ships, Ramming and so on) roll as per 3.

 

[Burger]

Remember to consider Weak weapons too - they will make it harder to hit hull, therefore easier to break stealth! Weak Precise weapons will RULE!

 

[Da Boss]

it is a very interesting idea - it may be useful to have a table with possible combinations ?

Are there any weak precise weapons?

 

[H]

it is a very interesting idea - it may be useful to have a table with possible combinations ?

Are there any weak precise weapons?

NNOOOOOOOO to hit Tables lead to the dark side....

 

[Da Boss]

Or perhaps clarity :wink:

Whats wrong with the Dark Side anyway :?:

 

[H]

hmm. That ship has stealth 4, I need to roll a 5 to beat it at this range, yay, now it has hull 5, I need to roll a 3 to hit with my sap missile. all seems pretty clear..

now then, this unit has BS3, Armour 2, and an opposing WS of 4, and toughness 5, so I have to look at the table, cross reference with a badger, and eat a mandarin. I think if i roll 4 Gunkles on the dice i've hit...

thats whats wrong with too hit tables!!

 

[Burger]

it is a very interesting idea - it may be useful to have a table with possible combinations ?

Are there any weak precise weapons?

NNOOOOOOOO to hit Tables lead to the dark side....

It wouldn't be a table with seemingly random numbers in it, just a summary of the system maths done for you. What you can work out in your head anyway if you don't have lazyitis.

There aren't any weak precise weapons no, but if this rule were reality then someone would have invented them :lol:

 

[H]

it is a very interesting idea - it may be useful to have a table with possible combinations ?

Are there any weak precise weapons?

NNOOOOOOOO to hit Tables lead to the dark side....

It wouldn't be a table with seemingly random numbers in it, just a summary of the system maths done for you. What you can work out in your head anyway if you don't have lazyitis.

well yeah, but i fancied a bit of a rant!

 

[Locutus9956]

Well I'll repost again since in the time it took me to fiddle with the wording lots of posts have appeared

1. Work out modified Stealth Score.
2. If modified Stealth score is = or > Hull, your firing against stealth all weapons need this number to hit and dont benefit from precice. Beams still CONTINUE to hit on 4+ but dont get benefit of precice.
3. If Hull > modified stealth, stealth is 'beaten' and you are firing against hull. Work out target number as though stealth didn't exist. All such attacks benefit from precice etc normally.

Fighters in base contact, and other effects that ignore stealth (such as Emines, Jump point shockwaves, Exploding ships, Ramming and so on) roll as per 3.

This also neatly solves the 'weak weapons pwn stealth ships' problem

Basically you use the base hull score and only factor in weak/sap etc once youve decided if your firing at hull or stealth.

 

[Da Boss]

it is a very interesting idea - it may be useful to have a table with possible combinations ?

Are there any weak precise weapons?

NNOOOOOOOO to hit Tables lead to the dark side....

It wouldn't be a table with seemingly random numbers in it, just a summary of the system maths done for you. What you can work out in your head anyway if you don't have lazyitis.

There aren't any weak precise weapons no, but if this rule were reality then someone would have invented them :lol:

I hate maths and am lazy so i like tables :wink:

 

[Sulfurdown]

Why not simply have it that you take the current Stealth - if Hull is higher apply all the traits of the weapon and roll as normal. If the Stealth is higher, roll against the Stealth score without any traits except for damage multipliers or Twin-Linked? Energy Mines going straight to hull as normal. Then you're not worrying about what scores do what under different conditions and traits.

Make the comparison first - then apply applicable traits to the Score that you're rolling against.

EDIT: or I could finish reading the thread before being redundant...

 

[Burger]

1. Work out modified Stealth Score.
2. If modified Stealth score is = or > Hull, your firing against stealth all weapons need this number to hit and dont benefit from precice. Beams still CONTINUE to hit on 4+ but dont get benefit of precice.
3. If Hull > modified stealth, stealth is 'beaten' and you are firing against hull. Work out target number as though stealth didn't exist. All such attacks benefit from precice etc normally.

Fighters in base contact, and other effects that ignore stealth (such as Emines, Jump point shockwaves, Exploding ships, Ramming and so on) roll as per 3.

Sounds good to me! I can't think of anything blatantly broken about this.
It would make stealth slightly weaker if your opponent does the work (ie. scouting, getting close effectively ignores your stealth, they don't even have to roll 2+). But to compensate it is a boost to stealth if you manage to keep it up (AP, SAP, Beam, MB don't work).

Playtesting required of course but it seems that all the ship stats would be just fine as they are! Though the stealth on the Troligan would be worthless

 

[Sulfurdown]

Perhaps, Im not sure it works 'as is' with current hull/stealth values (but the more I look at it, it actually just MIGHT...). Only time will tell....

I think you're going to want a re-evaluation of Hull scores at least. Sharlin at 8" right now gives you a 50/50 to fire with full weapons. Under a revision it would automatically go to the Hull value. In effect - higher hull values would be harder on the Minbari since they'd suffer ALL of the trait effects. Look at the poor abused Troligan, you'd have to be Running Silent through an EM Distortion at 21" before you can even benefit from Stealth and a point higher (asteroid field) it becomes invisible without counter measures. Tight band of operation. But then again - look at the Valen'tha. When it's stealth wasn't protecting it the EA pretty much took it to town. Minbari seem to epitomize the Weak Hull/Advanced Tech mentality. Your system would allow that to be represented a little bit better. (Of course - that makes those lucky Trait Down crits much MUCH harsher for a low hull Minbari fleet)

 

[David Anla Shok']

Slow loading and one shot weapons essentially get freebie attempts to lock, as they aren't considered expended.
Regards,

 

[Silvereye]

Interesting idea, though I may have missed something.

Ok, what about a Neshatan Gunship being shot at by a Primus at 12"? Its Hull 6 Stealth 4+. No Scout Lock, no previous shooting hit. Currently the Primus gets a 50/50 chance to see the Neshatan and then shoot at it.

In the revised example, since the Hull exceeds the Stealth (even at 20"+) then all the Primus' shots will be going straight up against the Neshatan's Hull. It may as well not bother with the Stealth trait.

 

[Sulfurdown]

That's why the Hulls, etc would need slight adjustment. Though taking that same Neshatan using any two of the tricks will switch over to Stealth scores (and if you can get three tricks to stack it becomes untouchable without countermeasures).

Edit: Neshatan in an Asteroid Field = Stealth 6+ >> operating on the Stealth score. (Asteroid Field + Dust Cloud = 7+, then range finding and additional abilities.)

 

[David Anla Shok']

Stealth should be more effective at range, and much less so close up. Most EW systems function with that sort of efficiency..
Regards,

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Why do you put "regards," at the end of every post? You don't sign them and obviously don't need so, so why bother? :?

 

[Sulfurdown]

Bait?