I've heard tales that somewhere out there exists a conversion of warhammer 40k using the much better starship troopers rules. Thus far I have been unable to find this elusive conversion. It would be GREATLY appreciated if anyone could point me in the right direction, or show me where to find these rules.
Warhammer 40k conversion
- Thread starter Mended
- Start date
MaxSteiner
Mongoose
Hmmm, cant remember the name, but sounds like you wanna goto Yahoo groups and do a search for Mongoose.
I think the group was calle Mongoose mods or something like that, but I dont think there was a great deal of SST floating round last time I looked.
I think the group was calle Mongoose mods or something like that, but I dont think there was a great deal of SST floating round last time I looked.
Lieutenant Rasczak
Mongoose
Soulmage said:
What ideas do you have so far (if any)?
Lieutenant Rasczak
Mongoose
lt.harper said:
I KNOW!
I've JUST finished the Cybermen for SST!
Lieutenant Rasczak
Mongoose
lt.harper said:
I was wondering where you were yes.
Soulmage
Mongoose
Lieutenant Rasczak said:
Just been trying to think of basic things right now. Relative values I think is very important. For example, what are the stats for:
a lasgun vs. a bolter vs. a storm bolter, vs. a heavy bolter vs. an autocannon, vs. an assault cannon?
or
an IG infantry man vs. a space marine, vs. a terminator, vs a dreadnought, vs a predator, vs a land raider.
My approach. . . which I'm sure some will like and some will hate. . . is not just to try to do a straight conversion of existing 40k rules into SST rules. There are a lot of bad rules in 40k. If I want to use them I'll play 40k.
Instead, I'm going to give some thought to what the rules OUGHT to be. Its going to be more fluff based than "a bolter can fire twice within 12" or once out to 24."
Its not going to be hard-core fluff based however, where a single space marine could wipe out a whole platoon of IG or something like that. But its going to be an attempt to create a BALANCED set of rules based partly on relative strengths in 40k and partly on fluff.
Does that make sense?
Here are some examples. None of this is locked down, or even written down yet, but are just ideas I've tossed around while driving to and from work.
Random ideas for weapon stats
Lasgun 20", d6
Bolter 24", 1d6+1
- Can take a ready action to get a firing stance and shoot at 3xd6+1
Storm Bolter 24", 2x d6+1
Heavy Bolter 30", 3xd6+1
Autocannon 36", 3xd10
Assault cannon 24", 6xd6+2
Missile launcher 60", 1d10+3, -3 armor save
Lascannon 48", 1d10+4, -4 armor save
Random ideas for unit stats
IG Trooper - Target 3+, Kill 5+, Save 6+
Space Marine - Target 5+, Kill 7+, Save 4+
Terminator - Target 6+, Kill 8+, Save 3+
Dreadnought - Target 8+, Kill 10+, Save 3+, Ignore 1st 2 failed saves
Anyway, just some random numbers I'm tossing around. Obviously a lot of stuff to do to even get to the basics of the system to play. But I *AM* thinking about it!
Lieutenant Rasczak
Mongoose
Looking good so far!
and yes, I follow you.
and yes, I follow you.
I really like the flow and feel of the SST rules, even the Evo version, but also like the 40k universe. I have done some tinkering with conversions so as to not "invalidate" my stepson's Necron army. Here is the thought process that went behind creating the stats for a Necron warrior. I think you can apply this type of analysis to any model in a case-by-case basis.
These were originally put into a BFEvo game, so unit/stat comparisons are from that evo game. In this exact case, we used a USMC guy with a cost of about 20 points.
Move - 4 - In 40k, every foot model would have a move of 6. We liked the feel of the Necrons from the Dawn of War game so assigned a Move 4.
Size - 1 - Kept with man size, though they are a little bigger in the fluff
Target - 5 - Necrons are T4 in 40k, so we decided they should be a bit tougher than a normal person(they are made of metal).
Armor - 3+ - We liked the 3+ save.
Kill - 7 - We decided normal D6 weapons would not kill a Necron outright. You need to bring something heavier to bear.
At this point, they are a third again as survivable by armor and another 1/6 survivable by increased target and kill. At this point, we are estimating 30 points.
Attack - 1D6 - We felt this captured the slowness of the Necrons in close combat but still gave them capability.
Special Rules -
We'll Be Back - This is another Necron specific rule that we couldn't do without. SST Arachnids have a similar rule with the carrion bugs. This causes an increase of points by a 3rd, so we would bump the 30 points so far by a third. After a failed armor save, ignore the result on a second 4+ roll. Does not work against Kill results, Resurrection orb will come in a later game
Still very annoying. A lucky 6 hits from a single fire team yielded 2 failed armor saves but 2 successful WBB rolls. Did suppress them though and the marines were out of range for a follow up shoot reaction(see next rule why they would have shot back).
Will not stop, will not quit - We didn't allow the Necrons to avoid suppression completely, but allowed them to make a shooting reaction even if suppressed. The following turn they still get only 1 action.
Wi-Fi Communication - We decided that Necrons still have a command range of 6", but like bugs can choose a leader at the beginning of each action.
We felt that these last 2 rules balanced out the USMC Landwarrior special rules.
Weapons - 2D6 20" Gauss - We decided that a Necron weapon still should shoot about 24"(firezones give an extra 6") Giving the extra damage die combines both the 40k idea of rapid fire and the idea of S4 weapon being a bit stronger, without making a kill 7 possible. As for the gauss effect, we decided that a natural roll of 6 will count as meeting the target value. e.g., a vehicle with a target 7 would be hit by natural 6s.
We decided these bonuses upped the offensive capabilities by about 5-10 points, we erred on the side of 10.
We tried a game with 5 50-point necron warriors against 245 points of USMC, 1 squad plus an extra fire team. Very close. The USMC had to maneuver in and assault them out of cover (I forgot about the marines cover only being +1 instead of +2 rule, so I thought I could only damage them with the grenade launcher). Using the shatter rules, the USMC edged out a victory with only 5 of 13 models left on the table(almost shattered themselves!) The Necrons faired much worse against the heavily RPG armed MEA(too many lucky kill results from long range). We were trying BFE and I didn't have time to dig out some bugs or LAMI to try an SST test.
These were originally put into a BFEvo game, so unit/stat comparisons are from that evo game. In this exact case, we used a USMC guy with a cost of about 20 points.
Move - 4 - In 40k, every foot model would have a move of 6. We liked the feel of the Necrons from the Dawn of War game so assigned a Move 4.
Size - 1 - Kept with man size, though they are a little bigger in the fluff
Target - 5 - Necrons are T4 in 40k, so we decided they should be a bit tougher than a normal person(they are made of metal).
Armor - 3+ - We liked the 3+ save.
Kill - 7 - We decided normal D6 weapons would not kill a Necron outright. You need to bring something heavier to bear.
At this point, they are a third again as survivable by armor and another 1/6 survivable by increased target and kill. At this point, we are estimating 30 points.
Attack - 1D6 - We felt this captured the slowness of the Necrons in close combat but still gave them capability.
Special Rules -
We'll Be Back - This is another Necron specific rule that we couldn't do without. SST Arachnids have a similar rule with the carrion bugs. This causes an increase of points by a 3rd, so we would bump the 30 points so far by a third. After a failed armor save, ignore the result on a second 4+ roll. Does not work against Kill results, Resurrection orb will come in a later game
Still very annoying. A lucky 6 hits from a single fire team yielded 2 failed armor saves but 2 successful WBB rolls. Did suppress them though and the marines were out of range for a follow up shoot reaction(see next rule why they would have shot back).Will not stop, will not quit - We didn't allow the Necrons to avoid suppression completely, but allowed them to make a shooting reaction even if suppressed. The following turn they still get only 1 action.
Wi-Fi Communication - We decided that Necrons still have a command range of 6", but like bugs can choose a leader at the beginning of each action.
We felt that these last 2 rules balanced out the USMC Landwarrior special rules.
Weapons - 2D6 20" Gauss - We decided that a Necron weapon still should shoot about 24"(firezones give an extra 6") Giving the extra damage die combines both the 40k idea of rapid fire and the idea of S4 weapon being a bit stronger, without making a kill 7 possible. As for the gauss effect, we decided that a natural roll of 6 will count as meeting the target value. e.g., a vehicle with a target 7 would be hit by natural 6s.
We decided these bonuses upped the offensive capabilities by about 5-10 points, we erred on the side of 10.
We tried a game with 5 50-point necron warriors against 245 points of USMC, 1 squad plus an extra fire team. Very close. The USMC had to maneuver in and assault them out of cover (I forgot about the marines cover only being +1 instead of +2 rule, so I thought I could only damage them with the grenade launcher). Using the shatter rules, the USMC edged out a victory with only 5 of 13 models left on the table(almost shattered themselves!) The Necrons faired much worse against the heavily RPG armed MEA(too many lucky kill results from long range). We were trying BFE and I didn't have time to dig out some bugs or LAMI to try an SST test.
Good all around startSoulmage said:
One thing I would want to keep in mind is watch out for that +1. Personally, I think a Marauder should still be bolter proof. You have to bring in the heavy bolter to affect it. I would lose the +1 and add another die. Further, I thought bolters are meant to be shorter range shock/boarding weapons. They should shoot at the same range as the lasguns, 20" IMOSoulmage said:
As per the bolter above but gets an extra die to boot, 3D6Soulmage said:
Like it as is. Not a heavy enough volume of fire to cause double suppression.Soulmage said:
I'd keep it at 2xD10, The autocannon does not lay out the same volume of fire as the heavy bolter.Soulmage said:
I think a +1 should be enough. Off the cuff, I don't think it should be able to kill exos outright(can't stand rendSoulmage said:
). Make it cause double suppression dice and you can bring the fire down to about 4(not just grabbing 40k stats ).Can't think of anything to change. It explodes as well, so incorporate some Evo-style explosion rules.Soulmage said:
Maybe similar range to missiles?Soulmage said:
I think these might be good stats for the White Shield conscript troopers? In the fluff, IG are trained, Target 4, Kill 6. As far as the save, I wouldn't mind giving IG a 5+ save. Their helmets all have that imperial eagle for something right?Soulmage said:
Again, I am a fan of keeping the saves the same. Bulky power armor as save 3 IMO.Soulmage said:
I'd compare Terminator armor and Grizzly armor, Target 5, Save 2, Kill 8.Soulmage said:
Like a marauder, only a little harder to target as the driver isn't as exposed.Soulmage said:
Soulmage
Mongoose
Well, as I said. I'm just throwing numbers around right now. Once the 2E rules come out I'll get serious about writing the 1.0 version and put it up for review then.
A few thoughts in response to your comments though:
First of all, keep in mind that there is a HUGE technology gap between SST era and 40k tech. Even in the imperium's fallen state it is FAR more advanced than the SST tech. Generally any SST tech that peforms battlefield role A, will generally be inferior to the 40k unit that performs the same battlefield role (and the SST version will cost a lot less consequently.)
That said. . . the game system is only so flexible. "Realistically" you probably couldn't put the two tech levels in the same game system and have a balanced game any more than you could put SST vs. vikings in the same game system.
So. . . short version is IMO its not a problem for "lighter" 40k units to have some chance of successfully engaging slightly heavier SST units.
The marauder for example. The pilot is only protected by a relatively thin sheet of I'm guessing "bulletproof glass" or whatnot. Whatever it is, it is certainly a FAR CRY less sturdy than the thick ADAMANTIUM hull that protects a dreadnought's sarcophagus. Therefore, the marauder should be far more vulnerable than the dreadnought.
Personally, it wouldn't bother me to see a lucky bolter hit able to penetrate the glass/lexan/whatever protecting a marauder pilot and kill the pilot inside.
I did like some of your suggestions though, here are a few specific responses:
Bolters - I like your point about the 20" range. See my notes above on the bolter v. marauder issue, and keep in mind that a bolter round is MUCH more powerful than a lasgun bolt. Having them both do 1d6 wouldn't reflect that difference. . . and I'm more interested in preserving the relative 40k on 40k values than in "crossover" games.
Storm Bolters - Fires the same rounds a bolters. Will change the range here. Ought not to have the same ROF as a heavy bolter IMO.
Autocannon - Your suggestions make sense.
Assault Cannon - Have to think about this. Needs to be able to hurt a dreadnought while bolters cannot. Definitely should have a HUGE ROF - something not adequately addressed in 40k IMO. (3600 - 6000 rpm for a rotary cannon vs. 800 rpm for a full auto weapon).
re: Exosuits - an exosuit is just a less advanced, more mobile, less armored terminator. I can easily see an assault cannon taking one of those down!
Missile Launcher - Will have to split into Krak and Frag. This would be the krak stats.
Lascannon - Just because they have the same range in 40k doesn't mean they SHOULD. An ATGM (krak missile) would have a much longer range than a direct fire energy weapon - due to curvature of the earth if nothing else!
gotta go for now. . . .
A few thoughts in response to your comments though:
First of all, keep in mind that there is a HUGE technology gap between SST era and 40k tech. Even in the imperium's fallen state it is FAR more advanced than the SST tech. Generally any SST tech that peforms battlefield role A, will generally be inferior to the 40k unit that performs the same battlefield role (and the SST version will cost a lot less consequently.)
That said. . . the game system is only so flexible. "Realistically" you probably couldn't put the two tech levels in the same game system and have a balanced game any more than you could put SST vs. vikings in the same game system.
So. . . short version is IMO its not a problem for "lighter" 40k units to have some chance of successfully engaging slightly heavier SST units.
The marauder for example. The pilot is only protected by a relatively thin sheet of I'm guessing "bulletproof glass" or whatnot. Whatever it is, it is certainly a FAR CRY less sturdy than the thick ADAMANTIUM hull that protects a dreadnought's sarcophagus. Therefore, the marauder should be far more vulnerable than the dreadnought.
Personally, it wouldn't bother me to see a lucky bolter hit able to penetrate the glass/lexan/whatever protecting a marauder pilot and kill the pilot inside.
I did like some of your suggestions though, here are a few specific responses:
Bolters - I like your point about the 20" range. See my notes above on the bolter v. marauder issue, and keep in mind that a bolter round is MUCH more powerful than a lasgun bolt. Having them both do 1d6 wouldn't reflect that difference. . . and I'm more interested in preserving the relative 40k on 40k values than in "crossover" games.
Storm Bolters - Fires the same rounds a bolters. Will change the range here. Ought not to have the same ROF as a heavy bolter IMO.
Autocannon - Your suggestions make sense.
Assault Cannon - Have to think about this. Needs to be able to hurt a dreadnought while bolters cannot. Definitely should have a HUGE ROF - something not adequately addressed in 40k IMO. (3600 - 6000 rpm for a rotary cannon vs. 800 rpm for a full auto weapon).
re: Exosuits - an exosuit is just a less advanced, more mobile, less armored terminator. I can easily see an assault cannon taking one of those down!
Missile Launcher - Will have to split into Krak and Frag. This would be the krak stats.
Lascannon - Just because they have the same range in 40k doesn't mean they SHOULD. An ATGM (krak missile) would have a much longer range than a direct fire energy weapon - due to curvature of the earth if nothing else!
gotta go for now. . . .
Soulmage
Mongoose
Don't confuse WWI stylized tanks and vehicles with actual tech level. Fluff-wise 40k universe wins hands down. You can argue one way or the other about which fluff is better or whatnot, but there is a huge tech level disparity.
Adamantium, which is used for the armored hulls of 40k vehicles for example. Is either some radically advanced composite alloy that shrugs off most conventional weapons of the types we use today or is a super-dense fabricated metal that they have some technology that allows them to keep it stable. (Currently fabricated super-heavy elements break down in fractions of a second).
Anyway, whatever. Fluff says the tech level is higher. If you choose not to "believe" the fluff, so be it. I won't argue the point.
WWI style tanks just happened to be an artistic design decision because somebody thought they looked cool. Even in the 40k universe they don't make sense on a form vs. function basis. Personally I don't like 'em.
Adamantium, which is used for the armored hulls of 40k vehicles for example. Is either some radically advanced composite alloy that shrugs off most conventional weapons of the types we use today or is a super-dense fabricated metal that they have some technology that allows them to keep it stable. (Currently fabricated super-heavy elements break down in fractions of a second).
Anyway, whatever. Fluff says the tech level is higher. If you choose not to "believe" the fluff, so be it. I won't argue the point.
WWI style tanks just happened to be an artistic design decision because somebody thought they looked cool. Even in the 40k universe they don't make sense on a form vs. function basis. Personally I don't like 'em.
Personally I really like the way effective weapons range is handled in AT-43.
The system allows for "potentially quite long range fire" with many weapons, it does make accuracy less likely at long range. At least the concept deserves consideration.
The system also has some latitude for allowing for the "expertise in Marksmanship" of individual units or characters. Take a look at it, you may find something you can adapt to your taste.
Good luck on your conversion!!
Still waiting for SST Evo release.
I guess we may have the "Advanced Rulebook" by Christmas or so.
Until then I just keep playing my other games.
Starting to build up my SST armies again now that my move is almost finished.
The system allows for "potentially quite long range fire" with many weapons, it does make accuracy less likely at long range. At least the concept deserves consideration.
The system also has some latitude for allowing for the "expertise in Marksmanship" of individual units or characters. Take a look at it, you may find something you can adapt to your taste.
Good luck on your conversion!!
Still waiting for SST Evo release.
I guess we may have the "Advanced Rulebook" by Christmas or so.
Until then I just keep playing my other games.
Starting to build up my SST armies again now that my move is almost finished.
Soulmage
Mongoose
well I've got some gorgeously painted 40k armies. Love the models, love the fluff, not so hot on the rules. So it make sense for me to use SST:Evo to create some better rules to use with them! I'll be collecting SST:Evo models as well. . .
But I figure if I can get people to use existing 40k armies with the new rules, they will fall in love with the ruleset and maybe pick up some actual SST stuff. I'm kinda looking at this conversion as a gateway drug for SST.
But I figure if I can get people to use existing 40k armies with the new rules, they will fall in love with the ruleset and maybe pick up some actual SST stuff. I'm kinda looking at this conversion as a gateway drug for SST.
