Vilani Genetics

[EDG]

A couple of points. First, your assumptions with regard to hair colour are somewhat flawed. A specific point mutation is not required for non-black hair colours, all you need is differences in production of eumelanin and phaeomelanin, which can occur at a number of levels, including transcriptional and post-transcriptional regulation. That is to say, there are dozens if not hundreds of mutational events, and probably hundreds or thousands of epigenetic events, which could cause hair colours other than black. Keep in mind that hair colour is a complex polygenic trait that incorporates environmental inputs! Also- if Vland has more UV or different light spectra, we might expect to see some bleached hair anyway :wink:

...which illustrates pretty much exactly what I was saying. The "numbers" don't mean anything more than what happened during a single run of human evolution on the homeworld.

Heck, as a thought exercise, if you were to re-run human evolution for the past 300,000 years on Earth alone, I strongly doubt that you'd get the same humans at the end of it as we have now. Unless every single human bred with the same one at the same time in the same environments and nobody got killed prematurely (which is ridiculously unlikely), different mutations would show up - heck, if one person decided to breed with another (or not breed at all because of the onset of sudden early death, or random celibacy) then that might delay or remove a mutation from the mix and that would affect everything afterwards. I'm quite sure that Chaos plays a role here - change the starting conditions slightly and the end result is very different because of all the varying factors involved.

So I see absolutely no justification in assuming that the probabilities of mutations would be the same even if it happened on Earth again, let alone on another planet.

 

[hdan]

I remember a throw-away line in an old CT book that linked the Vilani to the Sumerians. (In a lot of ways it fits - Sumerians were quite bureaucratic and depict themselves a physically different from those they were living around.) The implication was that maybe Sumer was a lost Vilani colony. (Of course that's "chariots of the gods" nonsense, but it makes for fun game fiction!)

Consequently, I've always viewed Vilani as looking rather like Sumerians physically, though obviously without the grass/fleece skirts! (Google around some to see what I mean.)

Since the Sumerians called themselves "the black-headed people", and Babylonians referred to them as "black-faced foreigners", it's likely that they were at least very dark if not Black they way we use the term today. This fits with the "Black Vilani" idea, though Sumerians probably weren't Bantu or anything like that.

 

[AKAramis]

One should make note: the Blood typing system ABO and MNS and Rh (to give the three most common factors considered in type & crossmatch) are present in humans and chimps, our closest living modern primate species (unless some hobbits survived), with a divergence point some 4-6MYA. We can safely receive transfusions and tissues from Chimps of the same ABO, MNS, and Rh.

http://www.bloodbook.com/type-sys.html lists the known antigens checked for currently.

H. Neanderthalensis is generally not considered ancestral to H. Sapiens, but a spur off of the common ancestor, some 250-500KYA.

Also note that auburn hair occurs in chimps; it may not be related, or it may be parallelism, or it may be the same mutational source

Given that human sperm can penetrate chimp ova (as to fetrilize, that's not in the papers I've read), there's at least a theoretical possibility that fertilization and hybridization can occur across the imperial human spectrum.

Note that Chimps, Gorillas, and Humans all share the same range of skin colors, with different predominances of the various shades; the variability is probably highly morphic.

EDG: The Zhos I've seen in color all have slavic features and light olive complexions.

 

[kristof65]

Well, statistically speaking, I wouldn't bet on your assumption ... and I would on mine

Well, considering that the Ancients were the ones doing the transplanting AND the established canon fact that they were prone to genetic tampering - Vargr - I'd say in this case, all bets are off.

My guess is that the Ancients would have made necessary genetic tweaks to ensure the survival of their workers.

 

[captainjack23]

Looking at the timing, there remains the outside possibility that the appeance of Modern Humans is also the result of the aliens - they may indeed have grabbed archaics or even erectus as root stock. And then reintroduced us with tinkering. Yes, this is a variation of the Eve theory based on mitocondrial DNA (Eve-VonDanakin, for chuckles); however, regardless of how one stands on that issue, it is clear that modern humans are descended from a very small genetic baseline

And, the issue of interfertility as determined by fossil or even genomic evidence is far from clear. Even the genomic based conclusions of the neanderthal split are possibly contradicted by physical evidence of hybridization between populations.

 

[kristof65]

Been thinking about the interfertility thing, and I wonder if the best analogy for the various Humaniti races in Traveller isn't modern canines.

Take a look at the broad number of different breeds of dog we now have - and the differences between those breeds. As far as we can tell, they all pretty much come from a common ancestor. And yet, they're all pretty much interfertile with each other.


The other question that comes up for me is the amount of time since mankind took to the stars and discovered the other "races" of Humaniti. With all the intermingling of Solmani, Vilani and other off-shoots, even within the 1100+ years of the 3rd Imperium, aren't you going to have a pretty decent mingling of stock that's more regional, rather than based on the root stock? FREX, if a world was settled during the 2nd Imperium by 1/2 Vilani, and 1/2 Solomani, by the time Strephon comes around, aren't they going to be a lot more homoginized? Not completely perhaps, but you'ld have to think that there would be enough intermingling to make it noticable.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Richard Dawkins suggested if horses and donkeys can interbreed then it was likely humans and chimps could too.

Though this would beg the question: where are all the monkey-boys? This given the pervy proclivities some folk seem to have (mind I'm referring to all of humanity as potentially pervy, not just African folk).

Back to the point, would Vland also have a genetic effect beyond the environmental one. We know that there is life there, and that at the very least Vilani would have Vlandian gut fauna rather than Terran. Would/could there be any DNA transfer?

Does alien DNA even use A, G, T and C? Could we have K's and P's also?

 

[GypsyComet]

The other question that comes up for me is the amount of time since mankind took to the stars and discovered the other "races" of Humaniti. With all the intermingling of Solmani, Vilani and other off-shoots, even within the 1100+ years of the 3rd Imperium, aren't you going to have a pretty decent mingling of stock that's more regional, rather than based on the root stock? FREX, if a world was settled during the 2nd Imperium by 1/2 Vilani, and 1/2 Solomani, by the time Strephon comes around, aren't they going to be a lot more homoginized? Not completely perhaps, but you'ld have to think that there would be enough intermingling to make it noticable.

Just as a map is not the territory, statistics are not the population.

Note also that this degree of populace balance is going to be pretty unlikely for most of the worlds of the 2nd Imperium. The Terran veneer over the existing Vilani population was spread pretty thin. Many worlds will have a notable Terran blip in their genetic history, but only a few will have had the population parity to get an even blend.

That said, 2800 years is long enough for all but the largest of populations to have intermixed pretty thoroughly, so that Terran veneer will be found in a great many citizens of the 3rd Imperium. It will become stronger as you travel towards Terra from Vland, and more than a few worlds in Diaspora, Daibei, and the Old Expanses are likely to show little to no Vilani blood, just as Terran blood is very rare around Vland.

The sector that sees extensive three-way blending is the Spinward Marches. There are a lot of ethnic Zhodani scattered through Chronor, Querion, Jewell, Regina, and Vilis subsectors, in addition to the Vilani in Aramis, Rhylanor, and Mora, and the Solomani in and around the Sword Worlds and mixed into the Darrian populace. Most of the rest of the sector are 3I mutts already...

 

[kristof65]

Though this would beg the question: where are all the monkey-boys? This given the pervy proclivities some folk seem to have (mind I'm referring to all of humanity as potentially pervy, not just African folk).

Given the relative strength of chimps, my guess would be that those pervs desiring to mate with a chimp are quickly eliminated from procreating with any species. Combine that with the fertility issues - it's hard enough for many couples to conceive when they want to (not for all of them though), the interfertility between species lowers the odds that much more. Then throw in the probable sterility of the off-spring - after all, most Mules are sterile - and the odds for a noticable monkey boy population go down dramatically.

@ gypsy - though I used Solomani and Vilani as an example, I was thinking the "veneer" as you put it would be more Vilani overall for most of the 3I, given their length of time in the stars, and interactions with other human races.

Still, it doesn't really take that long for the races in relatively isolated circumstances to blur the lines - take a look at Mexico since the first Spanish soldiers landed there in the 15th century and began intermingling with the natives. While there are still broad variations among given individuals, you can definitely see the spanish "veneer" there.

 

[captainjack23]

Given the relative strength of chimps, my guess would be that those pervs desiring to mate with a chimp are quickly eliminated from procreating with any species.

...unless, of course, it's the chimps looking for dates......ewwww.

actually, this is one of the issues that comes up in modern human neanderthal crosses. The suggestion is that a human female couldn't carry a neander child to term successfully (human gestation is severely circumscribed compared to all other primates), but the reverse could work. Assuming the Neanderchicks were interested in the whimpyfolk males...

 

[aspqrz]

Hey aspqrz, thank you for the interesting thread. Not often I get to think about exogenetics!!

A couple of points. First, your assumptions with regard to hair colour are somewhat flawed. A specific point mutation is not required for non-black hair colours

Indeed, you are probably right ... however, what I said was ... and the evidence seems to support this ... is that *blondes* are the result of a single mutational event, almost certainly occurring in one individual, as are blue eyes, at varying times in the past and that, as far as blondes are concerned, natural spread by random chance would have taken over 600,000 years to give the same incidence of blondes as exists in the world today.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that the exact same mutation occurs on Vland, since, with the higher radiation background, light skinned (and that's what blondes are as well, with that exact same mutation) are less likely to survive than darker skinned (that is, my understanding anyway, one of the theories as to why africans tend to be dark skinned ... resistance to skin cancers ... though I understand that this theory is ... somewhat controversial) Vilani ... so one would presume that, unlike the case in the higher latitudes of Europe, there is either no or not enough socio-cultural survival benefit on Vland to outweigh the fact that blondes die younger.

Which means that, by random chance spread, there would, at best, be far, far less of them ... indeed, since this is a late development on baseline humans, unless the Vilani expressed that one off mutation 300,000 years ago, the likelihood, as I said, is that most Vilani will have dark hair, black, brown or, possibly, hazel ... red/blonde is unlikely as they seem to be related and linked with that anti-survival (on Vland) light skin ... auburn, I s'pose. Grey, as I said, Albino-white ... even more anti-survival on Vland. Green? Blue? What other colours do you suggest are likely? Shades of brown? Sure, covered in "brown" ... piebald black/white or brown/white?

Phil

 

[kristof65]

...unless, of course, it's the chimps looking for dates......ewwww.

...how many human female's would want to even try and carry a chimp's baby to term or let it live long afterwards? The same could probably be said for a chimp impregnated by a human. Not that it couldn't happen, but merely that that reduces the odds of a surviving offspring even more.

My guess - if it's possible, it's happened at least once. It's just so darn rare as to be in the realm of myth.

actually, this is one of the issues that comes up in modern human neanderthal crosses. The suggestion is that a human female couldn't carry a neander child to term successfully (human gestation is severely circumscribed compared to all other primates), but the reverse could work. Assuming the Neanderchicks were interested in the whimpyfolk males...

...or vice versa.

 

[kristof65]

...natural spread by random chance...

Except that on Vland, random chance suddenly becomes more likely because of the environmental issues. Remember that on Earth, we've evolved along with our environment. On Vland, the need to cope with the alien environment is much more likely to induce mutations faster. IF a particular physical trait becomes linked with a successful survival mutation for that environment, that trait is quickly going to become dominant there, regardless of how humans on earth evolved.

Assuming that most life-forms will begin to experience random mutations in an attempt to survive an alien environment, it seems more likely to me that some wierd things wuold pop up more frequently.

There is also the assertation that human hair and skin colors will stay within the current human norms for the Vilani and Zhodani. I don't see that as necessarily true. While humans don't have blue skin, there are other creatures here on earth that do - take a look at the baboon, frex. There is no reason that a random mutation on Vland couldn't lead to them having blue or some other color skin, and that becoming dominant because it also includes some ideal survival trait.

Obviously, though, these things were never really considered in any depth when the concepts of the Vilani and Zhodani were created. And definitely not with the more in-depth knowledge we have 30+ years later. All that really needs to be done to make them beleivable as they are currently portrayed is a good write up for them explaining why they are the way they are.

 

[GypsyComet]

Given the relative strength of chimps, my guess would be that those pervs desiring to mate with a chimp are quickly eliminated from procreating with any species.

...unless, of course, it's the chimps looking for dates......ewwww.

For an intelligent chimp's take on this, go read Brin's "Uplift War". The short of it is "wrong signals".

 

[captainjack23]

...unless, of course, it's the chimps looking for dates......ewwww.

...how many human female's would want to even try and carry a chimp's baby to term or let it live long afterwards? The same could probably be said for a chimp impregnated by a human. Not that it couldn't happen, but merely that that reduces the odds of a surviving offspring even more.

of all the times to forget a smiley.......yes.

And it's unlikely that the .....mating behavior cues for a chimp would be in any way activated by a human. And no way, as you point out, could the human press the issue.

 

[Supergamera]

With 300k years of deviation, it seems a bit odd that most of the canon Human subspecies are so close to each other. Maybe the Ancients put anti-mutation elements into all of their populations, to "fix" their modifications into place? Or they tended to place most populations in environments where they would fill the same niche that they would on Earth.

Ringworld is based on a similar time span (and a lot of early Traveller seems inspired by Niven), and there you have deviation into many subspecies, adapted for particular environments and niches.

 

[captainjack23]

...natural spread by random chance...

Except that on Vland, random chance suddenly becomes more likely because of the environmental issues. Remember that on Earth, we've evolved along with our environment. On Vland, the need to cope with the alien environment is much more likely to induce mutations faster. IF a particular physical trait becomes linked with a successful survival mutation for that environment, that trait is quickly going to become dominant there, regardless of how humans on earth evolved.

Assuming that most life-forms will begin to experience random mutations in an attempt to survive an alien environment, it seems more likely to me that some wierd things wuold pop up more frequently.

If a small population was all that survived post ancient final war, as seems likely, any recessive traits in that population would become far more common in the survivors. Ditto any mutation, or potential. Pitcarn island has the highest density of a very rare bloodtype anywhere, because one(1) member of the settlers had that blood type. The development of the northern european pigment (or lack thereof) probably started this way, also, although a selection for less melanin - IIRC, it's a vitamin D issue- would be a possibility, also accelerated by a small intitial group entering he area -and possibly being isolated by glaciation. The later example of the inuit isn't clear on this matter.

The opposite is also true: if none of the survivors carried a gene, no matter how common, it's gone -barring a mutation occurring which simulates the original trait, which is muc less likely than it is presented.

 

[GypsyComet]

Obviously, though, these things were never really considered in any depth when the concepts of the Vilani and Zhodani were created. And definitely not with the more in-depth knowledge we have 30+ years later. All that really needs to be done to make them beleivable as they are currently portrayed is a good write up for them explaining why they are the way they are.

While it hasn't been mentioned explicitly in print, I would expect some active tinkering with the Vilani by the Ancients. The considerable lifespan extension is enough of an indicator. With tinkering, the assumption is that population bottlenecking occured in order to concentrate the modifications. Bottlenecks of this sort also tend to reduce later randomness, or at least reset the genepool.

The Zhodani are less likely to have been tinkered with, as their world is not particularly unfriendly and psionics are a much later, and largely social, addition to their makeup.

Whether or not tinkering and bottlenecking occured with the Vilani or Zhodani, it certainly occured in some subset of the known Minor Human Races. In some, the resulting genetic homogenization probably contributed to the interfertility, while in others the tinkering would have led to effective or actual racial diversion to the point of no interfertility.

 

[captainjack23]

With 300k years of deviation, it seems a bit odd that most of the canon Human subspecies are so close to each other. Maybe the Ancients put anti-mutation elements into all of their populations, to "fix" their modifications into place? Or they tended to place most populations in environments where they would fill the same niche that they would on Earth.

Ringworld is based on a similar time span (and a lot of early Traveller seems inspired by Niven), and there you have deviation into many subspecies, adapted for particular environments and niches.

Again, not really. The time span for ringworld is millions of years. The humans that could have existed at the time specified for sampling by the Ancients are remarkably similar to humans today. There isn't a terrific amount of genetic variance in modern human stock, far from it. There's every possibility that the only significant differences (real ones, not skin, eyes,hair-or even minor metabolic traits) in humaniti are due to ancient tampering. If they needed to give a population a survival required trait, they could splice it in with no recessive variants, which would effectively fix it in place (barring mutation). Depending on how they did it, and to what genes, that might effect reproductive potential.

But on the whole, it's not a far fetched scenario - except for the alien intervention bit..

 

[rust]

In my opinion the similarity of the various groups of Humaniti in Travel-
ler is just an (implausible) plot device, much like the interfertility of Hu-
mans, Vulcans and Klingons in Star Trek.
One can of course try to come up with an explanation that makes the
plot device a bit more plausible, but in the end I really cannot imagine
any explanation that could convince me.

Since it would ruin my suspension of disbelief, I do not use Vilani, Zhoda-
ni and thelike in my settings. If I would decide to introduce something
of that kind into my setting, I would most probably follow the Ringworld
example mentioned by Supergamera: "Humans" who have adapted to
their environment to a degree that makes them very different from and
most probably not interfertile with humans from Earth.