Victory at Sea Supplement - who would buy it?
- Thread starter Ben2
- Start date
Court Jester
Mongoose
Burger said:
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jfox61 said:
Its a commercial decision only as far as its a 96 page book, you're right about seeing how well the book sells before putting out supplementary material. Probably a sound business decision. There's as much packed in there as could be. Yeah you can go buy games that are $10 pdfs but VaS is a $30 book. New ship stats (lots of them) will be available in the future.
If you're saying Mongoose is leaning towards GW marketing policies nothing could be further from the truth. Plenty of instances in the last couple years where players have voiced concerns over something they didn't like and TPTB have changed those elements of the game.
But if you've made up your mind that you don't like the game and that you got robbed there's nothing I can do to convince you otherwise.
Hi Uhlan.
You are a little mistaken about me not liking the game or being ripped off. I never said I didn't like the game I also said it was value for money given the quality of production that mongoose put into their products. There is plenty to get you started in the period too I accept that. My only Concern was that, unlike say Call to Arms, which I also own I may add and have purchased fleetpacks and supplements for, VaS is a historical game. There are only a finite number of ship types and all I suggested was that it could have been delayed a little longer to include all the types and charge a little more for the game. I am sure there are many gamers like me would like to play the ships that are not in the game. Another alternative could have been to release the game the way it is and have the supplements released at the same time to further enhance the game. I am certainly not knocking the game. I am trying to get it to be our regular fast play set at my club
You are a little mistaken about me not liking the game or being ripped off. I never said I didn't like the game I also said it was value for money given the quality of production that mongoose put into their products. There is plenty to get you started in the period too I accept that. My only Concern was that, unlike say Call to Arms, which I also own I may add and have purchased fleetpacks and supplements for, VaS is a historical game. There are only a finite number of ship types and all I suggested was that it could have been delayed a little longer to include all the types and charge a little more for the game. I am sure there are many gamers like me would like to play the ships that are not in the game. Another alternative could have been to release the game the way it is and have the supplements released at the same time to further enhance the game. I am certainly not knocking the game. I am trying to get it to be our regular fast play set at my club
Fair enough. To include more ships probably would have resulted in either less detail as far as ship stats or maybe scenarios or something being thrown out (I wouldn't have lost sleep over less scenarios). I wouldn't be able to live with the less detail part. You are absolutely right about there being a small selection of ships. I have ship miniatures in my collection that there are currently no official stats for in VaS. Thats the way it ended up. I would have liked a 200 page book myself.
VaS is pretty much a starter set, the rules are supposed to be easy enough that the first time naval gamer can pick it up right away. I can say starter set because we're hard at work on the follow-up material. You'll have longer fleet lists, alright.
:wink:
VaS is pretty much a starter set, the rules are supposed to be easy enough that the first time naval gamer can pick it up right away. I can say starter set because we're hard at work on the follow-up material. You'll have longer fleet lists, alright.
:wink:
Fitzwalrus
Mongoose
While I have some quibbles with the game results of some of the rules as compared to historical accounts, I'll agree that VAS works as a "pick up" set of starter rules.
Mongoose can easily expand the ship lists (and is already doing so) through S&P, so I don't really see that as a drawback either. If there is a specific ship not listed that you really want to play with and can't wait for the "official" numbers, the VAS stat system is basic enough that you can fairly easily "crack the code" and write up your own specifications.
There have been a number of suggested "house rule" modifications here on the Forum that I'd like to see added to the rules in a supplement, not to overly complicate the rules but to make them more compatible with historical reality while maintaining the ease of play that is one of VAS's greatest strengths (IMHO). Other than that (and the aforementioned expanded fleets, which sound as though they're in there already) I'd like to see more done with the campaign system, and perhaps more historical scenarios.
Mongoose can easily expand the ship lists (and is already doing so) through S&P, so I don't really see that as a drawback either. If there is a specific ship not listed that you really want to play with and can't wait for the "official" numbers, the VAS stat system is basic enough that you can fairly easily "crack the code" and write up your own specifications.
There have been a number of suggested "house rule" modifications here on the Forum that I'd like to see added to the rules in a supplement, not to overly complicate the rules but to make them more compatible with historical reality while maintaining the ease of play that is one of VAS's greatest strengths (IMHO). Other than that (and the aforementioned expanded fleets, which sound as though they're in there already) I'd like to see more done with the campaign system, and perhaps more historical scenarios.
Soulmage
Mongoose
Sorry everyone. . . caught me on a really bad day in an extremely stressful week!
On the topic:
I don't think that was really a choice. . .
You could either have 20 now and 20 later to get your complete list. . .
Or you could just have paid 40 a year and a half from now because it would have taken them that long to develop and playtest everything.
Its like the old saying -
"You can have it good, fast, or cheap. Pick two."
On the topic:
I don't think that was really a choice. . .
You could either have 20 now and 20 later to get your complete list. . .
Or you could just have paid 40 a year and a half from now because it would have taken them that long to develop and playtest everything.
Its like the old saying -
"You can have it good, fast, or cheap. Pick two."
I more or less agree with jfox61 in a roundabout way.
I think these are a good set of rules that will get better.
From a printing and graphic presentation point of a view they
are excellent. And I think MP's goal of a simple, straight forward
set of rules for WW2 naval wargaming was a very good idea. I hope they
continue with what they have started and I'm sure they will
because they are a fine company, with a solid fan base and they
will continue to get our support.
However.....
I think they should have done a bit more before releasing them.
Not because of the ship lists. but because of the lack of clarity
and reference that isn't there for a simple straight forward set of rules. My case for this, is in the forum itself. You guys have been filling in the errata left and right, more than should be necessary in my opinion.
Obvious oversights like, can 2 flights attack one enemy flight, the turning ambiguities or just omitting a one page player's reference sheet
seem so unlike MP? My criticism is meant to be constructive and not demeaning of MP or bitchy. so please take it in that light. I want them to grow up to be big and strong with many years of producing goodies to game with!!!I hope that MP follows through with this project because it is worth while.
I'd also like to see an errata sheet, players cards (BTW thank you Burger, Holden88, Agis and pixelgeek for your contributions) plus a seperate book on WW1 and or pre-dreadnought.
Keep plugging away MP!
I think these are a good set of rules that will get better.
From a printing and graphic presentation point of a view they
are excellent. And I think MP's goal of a simple, straight forward
set of rules for WW2 naval wargaming was a very good idea. I hope they
continue with what they have started and I'm sure they will
because they are a fine company, with a solid fan base and they
will continue to get our support.
However.....
I think they should have done a bit more before releasing them.
Not because of the ship lists. but because of the lack of clarity
and reference that isn't there for a simple straight forward set of rules. My case for this, is in the forum itself. You guys have been filling in the errata left and right, more than should be necessary in my opinion.
Obvious oversights like, can 2 flights attack one enemy flight, the turning ambiguities or just omitting a one page player's reference sheet
seem so unlike MP? My criticism is meant to be constructive and not demeaning of MP or bitchy. so please take it in that light. I want them to grow up to be big and strong with many years of producing goodies to game with!!!I hope that MP follows through with this project because it is worth while.
I'd also like to see an errata sheet, players cards (BTW thank you Burger, Holden88, Agis and pixelgeek for your contributions) plus a seperate book on WW1 and or pre-dreadnought.
Keep plugging away MP!
I think its a 'Typical' hobby company tactic, by releasing a set of rules. With the intent of releasing another supplement later, telling people that 'These are the bits we did not have time to add...yadda yadda yadda". You get a double hit, £20 rule book, and £20 supplement.
Personally, I think it should have been all in one book. Its not going to cost that much more, and nowhere near the cost of two books (you only have one cover, and its one run of prints).
Yes I know there are some rules that may need extra books, like Army books, or Class books etc. But I think it would have been cool, if the VAS rules were complete.
Like its been mentioned here, there are some corking complete (hard copy rules) for just £8, and I'm after a good set of rules. Not a book, full of pretty pictures, and graphics.
Personally, I think it should have been all in one book. Its not going to cost that much more, and nowhere near the cost of two books (you only have one cover, and its one run of prints).
Yes I know there are some rules that may need extra books, like Army books, or Class books etc. But I think it would have been cool, if the VAS rules were complete.
Like its been mentioned here, there are some corking complete (hard copy rules) for just £8, and I'm after a good set of rules. Not a book, full of pretty pictures, and graphics.
...however most rules like that do not come with the playing pieces like VaS did.
OK many will have them, but new gamers won;t and here we get into the problem of supplying the same product to diferent markets with different needs.
You can't please everyone. Personally the pack they sold VaS as suits me perfectly, I can try and play at a cheap price and grab the extras later (its not liek other wargames rules dont do that - DBA, Vis Bellica etc with the army lists)...
OK many will have them, but new gamers won;t and here we get into the problem of supplying the same product to diferent markets with different needs.
You can't please everyone. Personally the pack they sold VaS as suits me perfectly, I can try and play at a cheap price and grab the extras later (its not liek other wargames rules dont do that - DBA, Vis Bellica etc with the army lists)...
Reaverman said:
You can think that, but you would be wrong. It is a natural development cycle for a game.
Lord forbid the hobby actually costs money. However, you are getting a good deal. What does £20 get you in other hobbies? Games like this are far more than their constituent pages. . .
Soulmage said:
I think that if they'd released one big book at £40, or even £30, then a lot less would have been sold. I doubt very much that I would have bought it it.
The sparsity of the rules, that they don't cover all sorts of different weapons and odd cases, was also an appeal. A bunch of new gamers were up and playing a whole scenario in about half an hour. We weren't playing a "baby" set of rules but as they were in the book, we got it and we were fine with it.
Adding in a whole lot of extra rules would also then have turned me off, if I knew that there was a supplement with lots more advanced rules I probably would never have bought the game. That I, a casual gamer, can keep up with the complete system is a huge appeal. That's very much unlike GW's games......
msprange said:
Does development cycle include misprints, typos, and rules errata?
How I laughed when I saw the Kriesmarine had an Aircraft carrier, called 'Bismarck'.
For most parts, its a damn good set of rules. I'd happily pay £30 for, if it was complete and baring the above errors. If you want to add extra rules, you can always update S&P with additions and then add them all into the next revsion of the rules 18 months later. Rather than heading down the road of ACTA.
How do you have a development cycle for a historic game? You develop the rule system work out the data and release the game. It is historical, all the data is available. It isnt like say Call to arms which is science fiction and has an on going storyline which you can develop and add to. I accept that in that sort of game. But for a historical game, to me anyway, it smacks of either commercial exploitation knowing that if the game is popular they will produce more counters and data, if not they will just discontinue it, or laziness, leaving it up to modders to make up the missing data for them. Some people enjoy doing this and hats off to them. I have downloaded burgers sheets which are excellent. But this doesn't alter the fact that he shouldn't really have to do it.
jfox61 said:
Or, as I've suggested above, they're deliberately trying to produce a game that feels light and is below a certain "impulse" price point in order to appear to casual gamers like me.
After all there's enough hard core naval wargames out there that will have all the stats that you're after. I believe that Mongoose choose to go in a different direction and for a different market.
I wouldn't have bought a big £35 book, there must be others like me.
Also I had the distinct impression that they weren't trying co commercially exploit me. They weren't going to sell me miniatures, they'd given me lots of counters and the rules seemed pretty much complete. Yes things were missing but it had rules for all the major navies and some famous battles in there so it's nothing too major that I wouldn't miss.
From my point of view whether a game has data and counters for every ship in every navy isn't important to me. Whether it has enough in there for me to have fun with is.
Thanks for the compliment but I really have done no work on creating stats. I've just typed in the stats provided by Mongoose (from the book and from S&P) and made them look pretty. None of the ships are my designs, they are all "official".jfox61 said:
Yeah, I second that. It took long enough to enter the stats for the current ships (just over 140), I wouldn't have bothered if there'd been 1000.Oly said:
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