Victory at Sea: Cold War play test

Joe_Dracos

Mongoose
I am pleased to anounce that I am almost ready to have people play test my take on semi-modern warfare.

What do I have left?
Compile final ship and aircraft rosters.
double check to make sure that all the rules I have intended are crossmatched with the rules.

This WILL be done by tuesday (or earlier) so anybody wishing to try it out please sign up below and PM your E-mail addy.

You will need
Microsoft Word
Microsoft Excel or Excel viewer

So here is a preview of what I attempted to achieve and hope to achieve with future tweeks.

A balance between Aircraft, missiles, and ships: The biggest change was to give larger and heavier aircraft damage scores. This also means that aircraft are not represented by "flights" but by individual aircraft that carry there own weapons. Missiles will have a devistating impact and as such instead of a set range they have a speed score and will inflict damage equal to there DD hits multiplied by there damage multiple (double damage, triple damage). To prevent aircraft from dominating the game SAMs and AAMs can only attack aircraft. Missiles are carried by most ships and pack a massive punch so even a single ship can effect the battle in a monsterous way. Missiles may still be shot down by SAMs and cannons.

Submarines: instead of only having "dived" and "surface" modes the addition of "Periscope". This new dive mode uses all of the rules that submarines must normally adhere to plus the following:

1. The submarines horizon is extended to 24" for detection of surface warships only.
2. The submarine may detect an aircraft that is within 8" or outside 24".
3. Aircraft within 16" will see the submarines shadow or detect the periscope on there radar and do not need sonobouys or a ship to detect the submarine.
4. Surface ships treat the sub as "dived".

The Horrizon: this is the one and only obsticle to LoS.
A unit that wishes to attack another ship over the horizon must either draw LoS dirrectly to the target or have information relayed by subs, aircraft or a satilite. The horizon is dependant on what kind of unit that is attempting to draw LoS. It should be noted that if the enemy unit can see you then you can see that enemy unit.

Surface ships: 16"
Underwater: 12"
Helicopters: 24"
Aircraft: 36"
Satilites: unlimited

Special universal purchases.

Anti-Satilite missile: Raid (may only launch from SSBN's)
Satilite coverage: Battle (counts as a single satilite. You may purchase this more then once and is kept secret)
Nuclear Authorization: Armageddon - if any other player uses a nuclear weapon you may launch your nuc's for free. All nuclear armed missiles must be declared before combat, this does not necessarily mean that your opponent will use them.

Nuclear strikes:

4" from detonation: All ships take 20 DD at Quad damage. This ignore any hull special abilities other then Thin skin trait. Any ship with this trait is automatically sunk.

12" from detonation: All ships and Helicopters take 10 DD at Triple Damage. Aircraft must roll 1d6 and on a 4+ they flew too low and there aircraft shut down due to EM interferance. Any surviving ships loose half there starting crew and 2d6 per turn in the end phase.

12-24" from detonation: All ships will loose half there starting crew and 2d6 per turn in the end phase. All helicopters must roll a 4+ or fall into the sea as the crew sucumbs to radiation.

Questions?
 
Joe

I tink the missile AD needs to reflect the maximum number of missiles able to be tracked for that system in a single attack, not the number of missiles or the max ROF. Otherwise defenses will be able to launch so many defensive missiles that SSMs will hardly ever get through any ship with a VLS system.

My take on VLS is that it allows faster ROF but overall response to any attack is still limited by the ability to acquire and track the target. So I'd suggest something like this:

Old single arm SAM launchers = AD1
Newer double arm SAM launchers = AD2
VLS systems = AD3
+1 for AEGIS ships able to track and launch more than one wave of SAMs.
So belknap would have 2AD per launcher, Ticonderoga and Kirovs would have 3AD each VLS group, Bunker Hill 4AD, Type 45s 4AD each VLS etc.

Also detection is important, and at the tactical level shouldn't be automatic vs air tagets. Failure to detect misile launches was costly for both Sheffield in the Falklands and Stark in the Persian Gulf. We need to reflect that, by requiring ships targetted by missiles to detect them before shooting at them, unless the firer was already detected.

So I'd say detection should be:
- surface & air radar within horizon in normal turn - automatic
- beyond horizon ESM for ships or helicopters - difficult (6+/4+)
- submarine within horizon - difficult (4+)
- missiles & air during attack phase - difficult (4+)
 
I have a few remarks/questions.

Fighter Speeds: Is there any rule used to determine the speed of aircraft? Is speed supposed to be average cruising speed or the maximum capable?
For example the Mig-23 has higher speed than the Mig-25 Foxbat. The Su-27 has higher speed than the 2 migs (although it probably has the highest cruising speed). By the way, those 3 can outrun Sparrows and Phoenix missiles. Don't know if it is deliberate.

VLS Missile launchers: I have no actual knowledge concerning this. But can for example a Kirov launch only 2 shipwrecks at a time (IRL)? This also goes for russian ships with multibarreled launchers. For example, the Kiev and Slava SSN-12 Sandbox launchers. There is almost no ingame representation of salvo / swarm fire, which was a highly feared (if never encountered russian feat).
Maybe increase the AD (and lower reloads) on russian ships SSM launchers (or a special action that allows to fire double or triple your AD). This might make russian ships too powerful, however... (next point)

Aircraft modes: I read through the rules but what happens if a missile counter races past an aircraft towards a ship? Maybe allow aircraft to go on Intercept duty (speed increase? A very select target?) or CAP Duty (Can attack any missile/aircraft passing within 2,5", effectively a 5" AOE centered on the aircraft that's 'guarded'). Maybe other modes are possible as well.
 
scorpioni said:
Fighter Speeds: Is there any rule used to determine the speed of aircraft? Is speed supposed to be average cruising speed or the maximum capable?For example the Mig-23 has higher speed than the Mig-25 Foxbat. The Su-27 has higher speed than the 2 migs (although it probably has the highest cruising speed). By the way, those 3 can outrun Sparrows and Phoenix missiles. Don't know if it is deliberate.

Yes I know this is an issue currently. I am trying to develop penalties beyond the incapability to launch missiles for moving at high speeds. Currently I am thinking that just cutting the speed of many of the fighters and bombers by half as necessary just for balance issues as a final fall back if all else fails.

Another thought was that moving beyond a certain speed may restrict turning.

Another idea would be to give missiles an interception capability (against aircraft only) when aircraft pass within a certain distance of the missile. This one might get complicated.

I am pretty sure that I will not allow aircraft to attack anything moving at excessive speeds.

Oh and the speed represented is the maximum possible speed.

scorpioni said:
VLS Missile launchers: I have no actual knowledge concerning this. But can for example a Kirov launch only 2 shipwrecks at a time (IRL)? This also goes for russian ships with multibarreled launchers. For example, the Kiev and Slava SSN-12 Sandbox launchers. There is almost no ingame representation of salvo / swarm fire, which was a highly feared (if never encountered russian feat).
Maybe increase the AD (and lower reloads) on russian ships SSM launchers (or a special action that allows to fire double or triple your AD). This might make russian ships too powerful, however... (next point)

I may yet apply the Rapid fire rule to certain missile launchers on a very limited number of ships. I may also add it as a Soviet special action.

scorpioni said:
Aircraft modes: I read through the rules but what happens if a missile counter races past an aircraft towards a ship? Maybe allow aircraft to go on Intercept duty (speed increase? A very select target?) or CAP Duty (Can attack any missile/aircraft passing within 2,5", effectively a 5" AOE centered on the aircraft that's 'guarded'). Maybe other modes are possible as well.

Interesting idea. I want to see how aircraft are currently able to handle missiles. I probably won't apply this to generic SSMs but the interception of cruise missiles does make sense.
 
I might have a solution for the fighters:

You could halve the speed on all aircrafts (ball park figure) and rebalance some speeds thereafter since I think no sane pilot would go full speed when on an attack mission since it would drain fuel reserves dramatically (especially with full payload) and it also greatly increases the chance of detection by the enemy vessel(s).
Fighters/squadrons on cap would conserve fuel as much as possible to be able to guard their area as much as possible.
The only instance I can think of are interceptors. Once launched from their ship/airfield they have to get as fast as possible to their target (or at least long range AAM range): perhaps their target has broken through the CAP screen or is attacking from an unguarded angle. This interception can be represented by the afterburner trait or a speed boost with an intercept action/order/mode.
Are there any specialists who have more info on this? I'm just an enthousiast :P

I have a question though: are you aiming for a simulation (everything as close as possible to reality) or a game (units have clearly defined roles)?

If its the latter it might be feasible to just remove afterburner traits on aircrafts safe those with interceptor roles.
 
Regarding aircraft speeds, I think in practice most non-fighter intercept missions will be carried out at a high subsonic cruise, usually at low altitude in the target area to avoid radar and SAMs. For naval air combat the Falklands proved this. So I think you can group most attack aircraft into bands and then have a few faster bands for various fighters, depending on whether they were high or low supersonic in performance.

For fighters on intercept though you can base the speeds more on max. speed possible at the altitude. Again though, I would base this on LOW altitude, because fighters want to avoid SAMs too. BTW at low altitude the Mig 25 foxbat is not that fast due to its huge airframe, so a higher powered aircraft like a Mig29, F22 or Eurofighter would be faster.
 
scorpioni said:
I might have a solution for the fighters:

You could halve the speed on all aircrafts (ball park figure) and rebalance some speeds thereafter since I think no sane pilot would go full speed when on an attack mission since it would drain fuel reserves dramatically (especially with full payload) and it also greatly increases the chance of detection by the enemy vessel(s).
Fighters/squadrons on cap would conserve fuel as much as possible to be able to guard their area as much as possible.
The only instance I can think of are interceptors. Once launched from their ship/airfield they have to get as fast as possible to their target (or at least long range AAM range): perhaps their target has broken through the CAP screen or is attacking from an unguarded angle. This interception can be represented by the afterburner trait or a speed boost with an intercept action/order/mode.

This may be exactly what I do. This is a great idea.

scorpioni said:
I have a question though: are you aiming for a simulation (everything as close as possible to reality) or a game (units have clearly defined roles)?

I'm starting with reality as a basis and then making adjustments for balance and playability (and fun).
 
Cap'n Scott said:
Regarding aircraft speeds, I think in practice most non-fighter intercept missions will be carried out at a high subsonic cruise, usually at low altitude in the target area to avoid radar and SAMs. For naval air combat the Falklands proved this. So I think you can group most attack aircraft into bands and then have a few faster bands for various fighters, depending on whether they were high or low supersonic in performance.

For fighters on intercept though you can base the speeds more on max. speed possible at the altitude. Again though, I would base this on LOW altitude, because fighters want to avoid SAMs too. BTW at low altitude the Mig 25 foxbat is not that fast due to its huge airframe, so a higher powered aircraft like a Mig29, F22 or Eurofighter would be faster.

Well put. Definately will influence my decisions.
 
Joe,

I'm new to the forum but find this idea exciting. Any chance I could get a copy of the propsed rules and data? By the way, did you read any existing or out of print rule sets before starting on this endeavor?

Bob
 
I need a Private Message with your E-mail address. :D

Always happy to have extra eyes on the project. Makes for a better game (hopefully).
 
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