V2.0 Tech Levels

[Mongoose Pete]

Greetings! I have a couple of questions about healing and tech levels in the v2 playtest document.

1) If the Traveller universe has advanced medical care (up to complete replacement of injured parts via cloning) why does an injury force you out of a career? After all, as the rules stand now, any PC can have all attribute damage healed. If MedTech is so good, then there would be no reason for any non-fatal injury to force them out (unless of course a PC develops cowardliness as a direct result from the injury - but that might make the final character, especially an ex-military one, a tad unplayable)

2) I might be blessed from growing up in the UK and living in Sweden, but why on earth do PC's still have to pay for medical treatment? Hasn't the advancing tech levels encouraged the adoption of a national (universal) health care system? I know such things might vary from world to world according to social and political structures, but there is an obvious link between population health levels and planetary productivity/efficiency. Those worlds (or even worse, enclosed orbital or asteroid environments) which don't institute free health care are in for serious trouble each time a new infection or epidemic sprouts up... I know the Traveller universe was heavily influenced by US culture, but payment for health care does strike me as being very strange in such an advanced civilisation.

3) Cloning of replacement body parts is currently set at Tech Level 13. In some ways this is good, since I like the idea of obviously maimed characters from lower tech worlds with one arm or eye walking about. However, under the injury table it says that "other worlds specialise in transplants or cybernetic replacements." In theory this is great. In game terms it opens up a slight loophole in the fact that if a Barbarian with STR 12 gets an injury lowering his strength to 2, his replacement prosthetic effectively mimics a STR 12 limb. Now if a weedy noble with a natural STR of 4 gets an arm cut off in a drunken duel, what's to stop him from getting a prosthetic arm which replicates the Barbarian's, and thus have (at least a gripping) STR of 12 in the replacement arm? Perhaps an additional rule is needed too, which limits a prosthetic's final characteristic to the MedTech level of the world?

On a final note, I do like the way that Cybernetics have been introduced. The penalty to medical care is a good 'sting in the tail', and the cybernetics themselves are not particularly unbalancing in their effects(*). GM's can easily control their prevalence by having any and all security systems always pick up their presence (making them an embarrassment for the PC), and worlds with higher (or is that lower) law levels enforce surgical deactivation before entry is allowed. Cybernetics could also be easily taken out with a local area EMP burst too.

(*) in reality external hardware will always be more effective than internal cyberware, since it will have more volume and better power sources.

 

[Mongoose Gar]

Greetings! I have a couple of questions about healing and tech levels in the v2 playtest document.

1) If the Traveller universe has advanced medical care (up to complete replacement of injured parts via cloning) why does an injury force you out of a career? After all, as the rules stand now, any PC can have all attribute damage healed. If MedTech is so good, then there would be no reason for any non-fatal injury to force them out (unless of course a PC develops cowardliness as a direct result from the injury - but that might make the final character, especially an ex-military one, a tad unplayable)

Recovery time, trauma, and the root cause of the injury might all result in the PC leaving his career. For example, in my game, one of the PCs got injured while being a noble diplomat, and the player decided it was because of an assassination attempt, and the Imperium had him declared dead so they could use him as a secret agent again.

2) I might be blessed from growing up in the UK and living in Sweden, but why on earth do PC's still have to pay for medical treatment? Hasn't the advancing tech levels encouraged the adoption of a national (universal) health care system? I know such things might vary from world to world according to social and political structures, but there is an obvious link between population health levels and planetary productivity/efficiency. Those worlds (or even worse, enclosed orbital or asteroid environments) which don't institute free health care are in for serious trouble each time a new infection or epidemic sprouts up... I know the Traveller universe was heavily influenced by US culture, but payment for health care does strike me as being very strange in such an advanced civilisation.

Different planets, different cultures?

You could make the same argument about pretty much anything - Traveller posits nearly free energy from fusion, resources are bountiful, they've got the technology to make intelligent robots, so you could go for a full-on post-scarcity culture - but that would remove the free trader and economic aspects of Traveller, which is forbidden.

3) Cloning of replacement body parts is currently set at Tech Level 13. In some ways this is good, since I like the idea of obviously maimed characters from lower tech worlds with one arm or eye walking about. However, under the injury table it says that "other worlds specialise in transplants or cybernetic replacements." In theory this is great. In game terms it opens up a slight loophole in the fact that if a Barbarian with STR 12 gets an injury lowering his strength to 2, his replacement prosthetic effectively mimics a STR 12 limb. Now if a weedy noble with a natural STR of 4 gets an arm cut off in a drunken duel, what's to stop him from getting a prosthetic arm which replicates the Barbarian's, and thus have (at least a gripping) STR of 12 in the replacement arm? Perhaps an additional rule is needed too, which limits a prosthetic's final characteristic to the MedTech level of the world?

Check out Characteristic augmentation, which is as close as you're going to get. Assume that the noble's weedy frame can't support a mighty-thewed barbarian arm...

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Recovery time, trauma, and the root cause of the injury might all result in the PC leaving his career. For example, in my game, one of the PCs got injured while being a noble diplomat, and the player decided it was because of an assassination attempt, and the Imperium had him declared dead so they could use him as a secret agent again.

That's fair enough.

Perhaps you could slightly modify the Mishaps tables to reflect this? Thus instead of placing the bias on the injury, illuminate the origin of the injury. E.g. Assassination attempt, crashed vehicle due to narcotics, incompetent weapons handling, murder attempt by rival, illicit fighting in the ranks, sadistic act of a superior, accident which leads to phobia, etc.

Also, if there are recovery times and trauma associated with failed surgery, you should probably add that to the Healing rules.

Check out Characteristic augmentation, which is as close as you're going to get. Assume that the noble's weedy frame can't support a mighty-thewed barbarian arm...

I was thinking of the Six Million Dollar Man here, and assumed that a cybernetic prosthetic arm could easily exceed normal human strength without appearing any different from a weedy arm.

I was raising the issue, since in a friend's CT campaign using the adventures from the old Travellers' Digest, the player running Aybee Wan Owen (the cyborg valet) went off and illegally had his servo motors, electronics and chassis updated to give him an FFF in STR, DEX and EDU! The GM couldn't reasonably argue against the upgrades since they were effectively minor modifications at a mechanical level.

Save for possibly power supply issues, there is no reason (save socially) why artificial prosthetics cannot easily exceed normal human STR limits, as long as the activity did not transfer the stress to the rest of the body. E.g. springier feet and legs for faster running and extended jumping (boots mimicking such effects already exist), or arms with crushing grips and knockout punches.

Thanks for answering!

 

[Halfbat]

Save for possibly power supply issues, there is no reason (save socially) why artificial prosthetics cannot easily exceed normal human STR limits, as long as the activity did not transfer the stress to the rest of the body. E.g. springier feet and legs for faster running and extended jumping (boots mimicking such effects already exist), or arms with crushing grips and knockout punches.

Yes - and it's interesting to note that non-powered specialised feet for ath;etics/sprinting are being argued over _now_ as to whether or not they give the user more skill.

 

[Golan2072]

Concerning medical bills, they fit very well with how the OTU's Imperium works; in other polities (whether in the OTU or in a different Traveller universe) things could - and in many cases should - be different. However, I think that soldiers injured in the line of duty should always have their entire medical expenses payed by the service regardless of rank, unless, of course, they were dishonorably discharged. This would be done for morale reasons - after all, these men were putting their lives on the line for the state; they deserve at least proper care for their battlefield injuries.

On a similar subject, the number of characteristic points lost from a single injury which could be recovered by medical care should be limited by TL. This shouldn't matter much in the classical-era OTU where high-tech worlds abound, but in other milieus (such as The New Era and Milieu Zero) higher TLs might be rare or non-existent.

---
A few more notes about tech:

The TL8 comm (p.97) should have Audio and visual, and Computer/0 like the TL10 one – contemporary cellphones already allow for visual communications and even some computer work (especially the more expensive models), up to and including computer games, and we're probably in the early TL8 era. TL7 comms should be audio only, though.

Commdots (p.97) should be TL8 as well; we already have transceivers a few cm across today. The TL10 model should be much smaller, though…

The transceiver table (p.98) should probably devote more space to TL6-7 man-portable transceivers rather than to TL5 vehicular ones – a TL6 backpack radio would be of more use to the average Traveller group than a TL5 radio-station which requires a truck to carry.

Hand Computers (p.98) should be available from the start of TL8; at the bare minimum, they should have a Computer/0 power, though I am tending towards bringing the whole table 1 or 2 TLs down to be more in accord with the current computer tech and the projected near-term advances. A TL7 version should also exist, giving Computer/0 services but weighting about 5kg and costing around Cr1,000.

 

[Halfbat]

[ ...tech level anomalies...]

Some useful observations. The current Tech Levels are straight from the 70's version of Traveller, but we've come _much_ farther than was anticipated - particularly in computing power and anything related to computers. Voice recognition is available now, though it requires tailoring, and in one (open plan) office it was only not used as the office ended up being way too noisy! And (basic?, perhaps) expert systems are being used now all the time, as are target recognition systems - we just don't see them. Even more effective fullerene armour (perhaps even combat armour prototype?) looks likely in the next decade and the components for battle armour are being experimented with now (though another 40-50 years?).


Probably the real point is whether or not the rules are going to be generic and avoid the OTU TL bias or whether they are going to retain a fixed TL based on 70's predictions.

 

[Golan2072]

The Software TLs (p.99) are a bit too high. Interface and Security 0 (or even Security 1) should be TL7; Intrusion 1 should be TL8 at most. All of these are available today in our TL8 (sorta of) RL world.

 

[captainjack23]

The Software TLs (p.99) are a bit too high. Interface and Security 0 (or even Security 1) should be TL7; Intrusion 1 should be TL8 at most. All of these are available today in our TL8 (sorta of) RL world.

I think its kind of a mistake to lean too hard on RL earth examples. technically Bletchly park was doing computer intrusion; such certainly existed in the 50's and sixites (tech 6ish). The society in question has had at least one technological restart, and several thousand years and literally hundreds of examples of civilizations to make its own conclusions about what a typical tech introduction level is. Earth may have just been precocious as regards computers; and retarded as regards fusion tech (damnit).

Besides, when it comes to security/intrusion stuff (pen and paper or computer) each tech levels example may as well be treated as completely new, and older stuff as totally obsolete, and essentially non-existent.

Trivia: the German enigma machine, probably the pinnacle of mechanical computing and the driver for electronic computing, was available as a desktop applet at least 5 years ago. The Bletchly park computer, colossus, can be emulated by a java ap on just about any computer these days, including a PDA.

Cap

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I agree with CaptainJack, using current RL examples as the basis for the TL tables can be a bit of a mistake. One of the first rules of Tech Levels is that no two worlds are exactly the same and where they sit in every column on the TL table will be different.

Earth is probably a bit ahead in computers and a bit behind on power systems and propulsion (politics have slowed nuclear research). Weaopns, we are probably a bit ahead since we have this Balkanized government, but perhaps not.

SURE, we are ALL going to use RL as the point of comparison at TL7-9 and some level of consistancy needs to be maintained. Perhaps modern Earth needs to be defined specifically within each TL sub-category and move on from there.

 

[Tychus]

) I might be blessed from growing up in the UK and living in Sweden, but why on earth do PC's still have to pay for medical treatment? Hasn't the advancing tech levels encouraged the adoption of a national (universal) health care system?

A non political answer: In a world where your injuries (even amputations and lost organs) can literally be repaired as good as new, there needs to be a cost to the player or there's very little reason to try to avoid injury. Especially during character creation - if you can recover from every wound suffered during a mishap at no cost, then the net result of a mishap is only that you had to make an unplanned career change. I think medical costs are much too low currently.

 

[captainjack23]

) I might be blessed from growing up in the UK and living in Sweden, but why on earth do PC's still have to pay for medical treatment? Hasn't the advancing tech levels encouraged the adoption of a national (universal) health care system?

A non political answer: In a world where your injuries (even amputations and lost organs) can literally be repaired as good as new, there needs to be a cost to the player or there's very little reason to try to avoid injury. Especially during character creation - if you can recover from every wound suffered during a mishap at no cost, then the net result of a mishap is only or that you had to make an unplanned career change. I think medical costs are much too low currently.

" Hey bill. Cut my leg off, I'm late for muster and need an excuse....."

or...

"Here, hold my brain...I want to charge that bunker....."

or...

"STOP SHOOTING ME when you want my attention ! I have to pay for my laundry, you know."

or

"Oh yeah. Feels radioactive as heck. Tastes toxic, too. Better put up a spill sign."

or

"Oh man . I have to mop out the reactor core. AGAIN."

Love it. Best. Reason. Ev-ar.

Unexpected problems of universal magical healthcare...

(I deleted other 8 political sarcasms, jokes and mockeries here)

Cap

 

[captainjack23]

" See, the bandsaw stops a lot faster if you just grab the blade...."

"Luckily I was able to jam the gears with my head..."

" If you're in a hurry, you can always test current levels with your willy"

"...So I pretty much just stood there calling him a wuss 'till he was out of ammo, and then Bill arrested him."

This is great ..I could go on all week. :lol:

 

[Deniable]

I think you're looking for the out of print "Product Warning Labels of the Third Imperium."

 

[Tychus]

I have heard some pretty far fetched excuses from malingering soldiers, but are we in the Paranoia forum now?

Seriously, if your roll a "near death" mishaps during character creation, suffering what would be crippling injuries (10 total points off physical stats), and the gub'mint patches you up good as new for no charge, why not join the marines next term? That doesn't sound like much of a mishap to me really.

Now it's possible the service values you enough (due to the money they spent training you) that they'll pay to fix you up in order to keep you around, but that wouldn't be a mishap then, just an event. Besides, the Traveller universe seems more like a "kill all you want, we'll make more" kind of place to me.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

But instead of it always being a percentage of the bill, why not have it as "we'll cover all medical costs up to XXKcr and then we'll only pay 50%".

This will mean characters can get partial treatment for free but will have to stump up (pardon the pun) for the whole hog.

I only suggest this because as it stands an injured scout has a good chance of having a really massive medical debt, and I'd have thought a service that routinely dishes out multi-million credit scoutships wouldn't be so stingy with the elastoplast.

The IISS has always had a kind of "cradle to grave" fell about it, IMHO.

 

[pasuuli]

The IISS has always had a kind of "cradle to grave" feel about it, IMHO.

Yeah... and not in a good way, either... talk about disposable assets.

 

[Jacqual]

I dont understand why it would cost, just for the simple fact of Worker's Compensation Board. Which will pay for on the job injuries. Now you might say that it will not pay for self inflicted on the job mishaps, but with the tech to grow organs, limbs, and such how long will it take to heal. I lost my arm need to grow a new one how long that takes will be longer then the recovery. If they apply like a speed healing process to the limb growing then they can do the same to you. One other thing if you are injured on the job, and you have to pay for it, and you get discharged from your job. Why in the Heck do you lose the mustering out benifit from that term. I feel that should be given to the character as a way of the service saying sorry what happened but you have to go. I mean today soldiers that lose a limb in combat get pensioned off and they don not pay for their medical so why in the heck would the imperium not do something for them. even companies today have benifit packages. I feel that traveller should have them as well.

 

[captainjack23]

I dont understand why it would cost, just for the simple fact of Worker's Compensation Board. Which will pay for on the job injuries. Now you might say that it will not pay for self inflicted on the job mishaps, but with the tech to grow organs, limbs, and such how long will it take to heal. I lost my arm need to grow a new one how long that takes will be longer then the recovery. If they apply like a speed healing process to the limb growing then they can do the same to you. One other thing if you are injured on the job, and you have to pay for it, and you get discharged from your job. Why in the Heck do you lose the mustering out benifit from that term. I feel that should be given to the character as a way of the service saying sorry what happened but you have to go. I mean today soldiers that lose a limb in combat get pensioned off and they don not pay for their medical so why in the heck would the imperium not do something for them. even companies today have benifit packages. I feel that traveller should have them as well.

Simply because it is a way to balance characters that stay for a long time in dangerous careers, and thus are able to rack up great game related rewards (skills, benefits, etc). It's play balance.

Plus, the survival roll isn't about retirement, its about being fired, basically. You may get riffed when the service shrinks, you may get fired for incompetence and fined, you may get wounded, mustered out and forced to return your enlistment bonus.
Plus, if you are deemed responsible for your injury, either through self wounding or gross idiocy or a penurious administrator or manager (oxymoron, really), I guarantee you that military or coprporate coverage will dry up and turn into a series of bills and a less than stellar discharge or future reference.

And, as a note, for MOST of history, on the job incapacitating injuries usually resulted in you being let go. Period. And veretans benefits for the enlisted are utterly new. No reason to suppose it won't go back to that in the future.

-Cap

 

[AKAramis]

Simply because it is a way to balance characters that stay for a long time in dangerous careers, and thus are able to rack up great game related rewards (skills, benefits, etc). It's play balance.

Plus, the survival roll isn't about retirement, its about being fired, basically. You may get riffed when the service shrinks, you may get fired for incompetence and fined, you may get wounded, mustered out and forced to return your enlistment bonus.
Plus, if you are deemed responsible for your injury, either through self wounding or gross idiocy or a penurious administrator or manager (oxymoron, really), I guarantee you that military or coprporate coverage will dry up and turn into a series of bills and a less than stellar discharge or future reference.

And, as a note, for MOST of history, on the job incapacitating injuries usually resulted in you being let go. Period. And veretans benefits for the enlisted are utterly new. No reason to suppose it won't go back to that in the future.

-Cap

And the feel of Traveller is very much "16th Century Navies In Space" with later graft-ins of "Yanks in Space"...

And the modern benefits for wounded veterans is an oddity. Historically, veterans "benefits" amounted to the home village keeping him fed if he can't do so himself anymore. A few odd cases of individuals being kept on as clerks despite being unfit for service, but unable to return to their manual labor home village.

Of course, we have the Roman "exception": "Hi, 20 years and you get deeded this property... all you have to do is take it from the barbarians."

Given the medical capability in the current draft, I can see the military providing the needed spare parts (and even regenerating lost limbs; which was doable in CT and MT, and IIRC, TNE), but no post-service benefits at all. (Except the IISS, which is more like joining a cult than an imperial service.)

To be honest, aside from stat losses, ala Miles vorKosigan's post-freezer trauma (epilepsy + dex loss), post prison loss of endurance, I don't forsee any real health issues.

Oh, that's another good "officer-centered" sci-fi series: Bujold's vor Kosigan series. And it pretty well fits traveller about TL 12... with Barrayar being TL11 and climbing but having a low end of about 5... and Cetaganda & Beta at 14 or so...

 

[Klaus Kipling]

To be honest, aside from stat losses, ala Miles vorKosigan's post-freezer trauma (epilepsy + dex loss), post prison loss of endurance, I don't forsee any real health issues.

Oh, that's another good "officer-centered" sci-fi series: Bujold's vor Kosigan series. And it pretty well fits traveller about TL 12... with Barrayar being TL11 and climbing but having a low end of about 5... and Cetaganda & Beta at 14 or so...

Aye, but there's some rather significant NCO characters too, Sgt Bothari, for instance.

I'd just let the players choose whether they're officer or enlisted.