UWP Tech Level?

MasterGwydion

Emperor Mongoose
Is there any consensus on what Tech Level means in a UWP?

Some say it is just tech knowledge. Others say it is infrastructure. Others that it is only what is available to most of the population of the planet. Others say that it is the max tech available to buy on a planet, such as with a planet's shipyards.

I have been tending to agree with the infrastructure theory, even though I don't like it. The problems come when you have planets that are high-tech, but extremely low-pop. How does a non-aligned planet with less than 100 people on it maintain a TL-C world if it is just infrastructure?
 
Industrial base being what they can make or manufacture on their own, rather than import.

For a hundred hippies on a deserted planet, it could be a workshop and a bunch of printers of that technological level.
 
Yes, assuming it satisfies consumer demand.

And I mean broad coverage, transportation, food, and shelter.
With robots, of course, I can see it working, but 100 people without robots trying to make even a TL-7 microchip from gathering the raw materials to loading the materials into whatever fabricator that they have to make parts with. Hard to explain that.

The spirit of the rule definitely agrees with you though. Pop-1 TL-C world would be very similar to how you described it.
 
It seemed the logical conclusion.

Though, if something breaks, and they can't repair it, the technological level starts dropping.

As for automation, only so long it can be maintained.
 
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How does a non-aligned planet with less than 100 people on it maintain a TL-C world if it is just infrastructure?
Imports. That's what free traders are for.
If it's out in the middle of nowhere with no nearby civilization, then, well there is some stuff in the Sector Construction Kit to provide ideas to give negatives on Starport on p. 14 and 15.

If it is a lost colony, I would expect Tech Level to collapse within a century or two. And you can always penalize the Starport class (see the reference in the previous paragraph), which is already going to be not-A for the population 2 or less from the Core book rules.

So the most you're going to get for Starport B is +4 (1/12 chance by default. You could still a 6 on a UWP B100200 and get a 15, but you'd have to assume that it is basically a starport, probably built by someone (The Starport Co-op? - though you would assume Gov 2 for a participating democracy or Gov 1 for a corporation, which would lose the DM+1 for no government.... apparently anarchy is a very effective for of tech development? Lack of regulation and permit requirements? We don't need no stinking permits!)

But... the whole fun with the UWP and TL is the variation you get with random rolls and then trying to come up with an explanation for it. That's the creativity part of building a universe. I see it as a feature not a bug.
 
Imports. That's what free traders are for.
If it's out in the middle of nowhere with no nearby civilization, then, well there is some stuff in the Sector Construction Kit to provide ideas to give negatives on Starport on p. 14 and 15.

If it is a lost colony, I would expect Tech Level to collapse within a century or two. And you can always penalize the Starport class (see the reference in the previous paragraph), which is already going to be not-A for the population 2 or less from the Core book rules.

So the most you're going to get for Starport B is +4 (1/12 chance by default. You could still a 6 on a UWP B100200 and get a 15, but you'd have to assume that it is basically a starport, probably built by someone (The Starport Co-op? - though you would assume Gov 2 for a participating democracy or Gov 1 for a corporation, which would lose the DM+1 for no government.... apparently anarchy is a very effective for of tech development? Lack of regulation and permit requirements? We don't need no stinking permits!)

But... the whole fun with the UWP and TL is the variation you get with random rolls and then trying to come up with an explanation for it. That's the creativity part of building a universe. I see it as a feature not a bug.
If TL means "what can be produced locally", how can that reliance on Imports be true?

There are 2 in Core Sector alone.

Zan (Core 0519) B100103-F

Ye-lu (Core 1123) A100134-F
 
If TL means "what can be produced locally", how can that reliance on Imports be true?

There are 2 in Core Sector alone.

Zan (Core 0519) B100103-F

Ye-lu (Core 1123) A100134-F
I didn't say it could necessarily be produced locally.
It's a matter of: if I step out the door, what do things look like? Do I see rickshaw out autonomous driving vehicles, bronze tools or nanomachine swarms. At larger scale, that becomes difficult to support with imports, but on a planet of few people, it's something that comes in off the boat ship. If you're going to do math based on economics, the Pop 2 world is a rounding error, so it doesn't matter whether its related to what can be produced, but it is still likely what can be fixed, or bought with the (imported) tools on site.

It becomes more important when you're looking at worlds where the TL minimum comes into play, like TL8 for vacuum, TL10 for Insidious. There, those are the tools required for survival. So think of it more like: what is the Tech Level 'feel' of the place and what TL can be supported in that place. I think we could consider that to be true for every non-industrial world (so anything Pop 6 or below). It may be that none or very few of those actually produce large quantities of equipment of the TL that's rated. But that's the TL of the stuff you find on the street.

The sentence in the core book says:
"The Tech Level measures the average technology presence on the planet and gives an idea of local production and repair capability."

So presence, yes, for sure. But if there is no local production facility at all, then the 'idea' of it is rather irrelevant. For those two example Core systems, a single subsidized trader arriving every few month is what 'produces' the goods, and 'repair' is the person with the TL15 equivalent of the smart phone repair booth at the mall who has tools and parts imported on those freighter runs, not from a factory in the back. But from a consumer point of view, it's a TL15 world. You're not likely to find someone able to fix an internal combustion engine, but someone might be able to fix that TL15 pocket computer, or even repair the implant that's causing you to hear a buzzing noise all of the time. And with that level of population it's likely a person named Gus with Electronics-0, Mechanic-1, and maybe Jack-of-all-Trades-1.

<Tangent alert: This is why I don't like the way Electronics is implemented in MgTv2: Electronics and it's cascades. I'd rather have each of those have it's own skill and Electronics be a non-cascade skill for fixing stuff with circuits - or get rid of a non-cascading version of it entirely and replace Mechanics with 'Repair' />
 
<Tangent alert: This is why I don't like the way Electronics is implemented in MgTv2: Electronics and it's cascades. I'd rather have each of those have it's own skill and Electronics be a non-cascade skill for fixing stuff with circuits - or get rid of a non-cascading version of it entirely and replace Mechanics with 'Repair' />

Keep the skill cascade as is, but add either Electrical Engineering and/or Electronics (Repair) as a cascade skill (or Circuits /Repair really - at what point are you using fibre-optics/photonics?)

Or the alternate suggestion you made works well for a cascade, too: Repair /("?"):
/Electronics
/Photonics-Optics
/Gravitics
/Mechanical
/ ?

For example, in the USN, Fire Controlman & Fire Control Technician are separate Ratings. One uses (or "breaks"), the other repairs.
 
Is there any consensus on what Tech Level means in a UWP?

Some say it is just tech knowledge. Others say it is infrastructure. Others that it is only what is available to most of the population of the planet. Others say that it is the max tech available to buy on a planet, such as with a planet's shipyards.

I have been tending to agree with the infrastructure theory, even though I don't like it. The problems come when you have planets that are high-tech, but extremely low-pop. How does a non-aligned planet with less than 100 people on it maintain a TL-C world if it is just infrastructure?

It was originally intended to mean: "What will the average Traveller typically encounter on-world?"

Other factors that give details to that would be the other parts of the full UWP (Pop code, Trade Codes, Research Facilities & Bases present, etc.)
 
It was originally intended to mean: "What will the average Traveller typically encounter on-world?"

Other factors that give details to that would be the other parts of the full UWP (Pop code, Trade Codes, Research Facilities & Bases present, etc.)
Bases, starports, and research facilities never seem to be included in the population UWP code.
 
So presence, yes, for sure. But if there is no local production facility at all, then the 'idea' of it is rather irrelevant. For those two example Core systems, a single subsidized trader arriving every few month is what 'produces' the goods, and 'repair' is the person with the TL15 equivalent of the smart phone repair booth at the mall who has tools and parts imported on those freighter runs, not from a factory in the back. But from a consumer point of view, it's a TL15 world. You're not likely to find someone able to fix an internal combustion engine, but someone might be able to fix that TL15 pocket computer, or even repair the implant that's causing you to hear a buzzing noise all of the time. And with that level of population it's likely a person named Gus with Electronics-0, Mechanic-1, and maybe Jack-of-all-Trades-1.
Unless they are Non-Industrial, they must produce enough at that TL for their own needs. Non-Industrial means they require imports to maintain their TL. (This is what you are describing above.) If they are Industrial, they produce enough for themselves and to export.
<Tangent alert: This is why I don't like the way Electronics is implemented in MgTv2: Electronics and it's cascades. I'd rather have each of those have it's own skill and Electronics be a non-cascade skill for fixing stuff with circuits - or get rid of a non-cascading version of it entirely and replace Mechanics with 'Repair' />
I agree that repairing/building and using should be separated out.
 
Worlds are generated in isolation. This is the biggest flaw in the UPP process, especially the government law and TL parameters.

Why are there no pocket empires or cultural regions that insist on the same government type an law level on every world?

Using Geir's logic every world within the Spinward Marches should be TL15, there are several TL15 worlds that can manufacture all the TL15 goods and spares needed for the entire Imperial world presence. I have no idea how many TL15 high population worlds there are in Deneb, and there are too many different versions of that sector to reference it in any case.
 
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