Updated Vehicle Handbook in the works

[Tupper]

Log10 is what TNE used. I reconciled it as being: multiplying volume by 10 *roughly* doubles the height, length, and width of a vehicle. Lowering difficulty by a level doubles your chance to hit. So it made sense there.

With 2D6 task rolls, it's a bit harder to ascertain what +1 means. It's a big deal at long range, less so in close.

I would say that the current progression seems to go from 0 to +6 very quickly.

 

[tytalan]

Ideally, TL-15 Fusion Plants would simply provide 1/3 more power than the TL-12 Fusion Plants. Keep it simple. Keep the double price as well.

If the VH G-Drive is worse, I will just shrink down the M-Drive from HG. It already uses Range Bands for movement anyhow.

VH G-Drive is Different from M-Drive not worse or at least it shouldn’t be. A G-Drive should have a better acceleration than most low end M-Drive and far more Agility. While a M-Drive top end should be terminal velocity where a G-Drives will be lower

 

[tytalan]

By the Gier I like the way the Trepida & Astrin are looking now we need their MAV sister at the same size as it was in MegaTraveller. That would be a trifecta

 

[Condottiere]

You put a jump drive in a large enough vehicle, plus proper motivation, and you have a starship.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I also wonder if there should be a threshold at which weapons *can't* damage vehicles. At present, if effect is added in, unarmed attackers doing 1D6+effect damage can tear apart a dune buggy (armour 2+6 = 8) if they put their mind to it.

For unarmed vs vehicles or personal armors, I would say if the Armor exceeds your DM from Endurance, you take damage and not the object that you are striking. Allow the Effect of the Attack Roll to add to your effective END DM for not being damaged yourself.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You put a jump drive in a large enough vehicle, plus proper motivation, and you have a starship.

Yep. Now all you have to do is chuck it out an airlock and then jump! lol

 

[Geir]

Size is another thing that's all over in the current version : You have animal size, vehicle size, and starship size DMs to hit.
At animal, a cow is +1, an elephant +4, and a whale is DM+6. There is no reason why vehicles and animals should use a different scale, especially since a biotech vehicle is both. And how big is a barn door, exactly? Might it not be easier to hit a barn door than an elephant? (Also makes me even less impressed than my not-at-all-high regard for the big white hunter shooting an elephant, even in his pajamas...)

I can see why starship scale is different- the distances are also different and the time scale (ignore dogfights, because I prefer to ignore them), and I get why a straight scale on volume isn't right, but surface area increases as at a square when volume cubes. So 8x volume is 4x surface area, closer to a natural log than a log 10. Animal rules, even a standard car should be bigger than a cow and should get a bonus. The bonus would exist if it was a robot - they follow animal rules.

It it should be simple and span the gamut.

Could go with this:


Blown out to this:


Needs a table, for sure.

 

[Tupper]

The current rules are actually a bit weirder than that.

Any starship gets +2 to hit by individual level attackers.

So vehicles are +1 at 10 tonnes, +2 at 20, etc. Starships are +2 at 0 tonnes, +3 at 1000 tonnes.

One might do some mental gymnastics about the bonus not being so high for starships to reflect that you have to have hit it in such a way that you can damage it, and maybe that's harder for a 60 tonne starship than for a 60 tonne vehicle...

I'd suggest that your bonus to hit table supercede the +2 for starships. A 10 tonne launch is +1 to hit. A free trader is +4 to hit.

Another can of worms is the Galleon in VHB. It has lots of cannons. When engaging other Galleons, because of the size bonus, these can easily hit (ignore criticals for the moment) even at very long ranges. So one broadside can easily sink another Galleon. However, my understanding was that age of sail battles were quite drawn out. Part of that is probably that a lot of cannons missed (unless you were at *very short* ranges). But also somehow wooden ships could take quite a few cannon-balls before they sank.

 

[Vormaerin]

That's kind of a Mongoose theme. They aren't really interested in long drawn out combats. Certainly they build most space ships as only slightly tougher than glass cannons. They *want* battleships getting wrecked and smaller ships just exploding. It's a feature, not a bug.

Whether that is intentionally carried over to galleons or not? *shrugs*

 

[Geir]

Another can of worms is the Galleon in VHB. It has lots of cannons. When engaging other Galleons, because of the size bonus, these can easily hit (ignore criticals for the moment) even at very long ranges. So one broadside can easily sink another Galleon. However, my understanding was that age of sail battles were quite drawn out. Part of that is probably that a lot of cannons missed (unless you were at *very short* ranges). But also somehow wooden ships could take quite a few cannon-balls before they sank.

And nobody wants to roll to hit 35 times...
I've done a little bit with naval combat, more about ramming and stuff, but battery (as in grouped guns, not electricity) rules and the actual strength of the ships should come into play. That ship is off, too - crew of 425 and 10 bunks? I've heard of hot bunking, but, really? Plus, a Galleon or really any ship before steam should be TL2 or less. And so should the cannon. In the case of that ship 800 hull is 32 1/3 cannon hits (with no bonus for effect and I forgot about the armour - oh, add, um 2 for TL...) to completely sink, so that's a critical every 3 hits. The rate of fire of cannon is nowhere near one per round, though, so working on that too...

To be fair, the description says: "a single volley can be enough to end a battle"

 

[Tupper]

Thinking some more about the Galleon, I suspect its problem may be that it's just too small (the mediocre living quarters support this too). If I've done my arithmetic correctly, USS Constitution is 409 Traveller tonnes, while HMS Victory is 900 Traveller tonnes. That is 1636 spaces or 3600 spaces. If we take them to be "powered boats", that would give them 3272 hits and 7200 hits respectively. If a cannon does 7D (= 25 damage), it'd take 131 cannon hits to sink Constitution and 288 to sink Victory. That sounds vaguely sensible.

Plus both ships would qualify to avoid criticals from a cannon, and so the only criticals at play would be from 10% increments of damage.

Yar har!

 

[MasterGwydion]

The current rules are actually a bit weirder than that.

Any starship gets +2 to hit by individual level attackers.

So vehicles are +1 at 10 tonnes, +2 at 20, etc. Starships are +2 at 0 tonnes, +3 at 1000 tonnes.

One might do some mental gymnastics about the bonus not being so high for starships to reflect that you have to have hit it in such a way that you can damage it, and maybe that's harder for a 60 tonne starship than for a 60 tonne vehicle...

I'd suggest that your bonus to hit table supercede the +2 for starships. A 10 tonne launch is +1 to hit. A free trader is +4 to hit.

Another can of worms is the Galleon in VHB. It has lots of cannons. When engaging other Galleons, because of the size bonus, these can easily hit (ignore criticals for the moment) even at very long ranges. So one broadside can easily sink another Galleon. However, my understanding was that age of sail battles were quite drawn out. Part of that is probably that a lot of cannons missed (unless you were at *very short* ranges). But also somehow wooden ships could take quite a few cannon-balls before they sank.

The hull of the USS Constitution is 22" of a very hard wood. "Old Ironsides"

 

[tytalan]

One of the problems is that the fact that the instability of the platform is not taken into account. A ship constantly moves often in three directions so that should have an effect on accuracy.
Two black powder none rifled firearms are nitrous inaccurate they used to say the safest place when be shoot by a black powder weapon is 40 feet directly in front of the weapon. They lack of rifling and the poor quality of the powder leads to a very poor performance.

As far a crew sleeping arrangement it was common for the crew to actually sleep on the deck and only officers and NCOs to get to sleep inside.

Any black powder weapon should have an inaccuracy treat as should any none rifled percussion weapon. Gauss weapons can’t be rifled but their high velocity and aerodynamic rounds gives them all the stabilization they need

 

[MasterGwydion]

One of the problems is that the fact that the instability of the platform is not taken into account. A ship constantly moves often in three directions so that should have an effect on accuracy.
Two black powder none rifled firearms are nitrous inaccurate they used to say the safest place when be shoot by a black powder weapon is 40 feet directly in front of the weapon. They lack of rifling and the poor quality of the powder leads to a very poor performance.

As far a crew sleeping arrangement it was common for the crew to actually sleep on the deck and only officers and NCOs to get to sleep inside.

Any black powder weapon should have an inaccuracy treat as should any none rifled percussion weapon. Gauss weapons can’t be rifled but their high velocity and aerodynamic rounds gives them all the stabilization they need

That and you really couldn't "aim" those cannons either. You had some wiggle room and could change elevation to account for range, but basically if the ship wasn't in just the right spot, at just the right angle, you were missing your target. Also, remember that cannons also fired grapeshot (to cripple the crew) and chain shot (to take out a mast).

 

[Condottiere]

Age of sail is basically personnel, rigging, cannons, fire, and the powder magazine, versus ablative armour.

Hitting the powder magazine tends to be a P{y}r[rh](o)ic victory.

 

[Technetium 98]

Size is another thing that's all over in the current version : You have animal size, vehicle size, and starship size DMs to hit.
At animal, a cow is +1, an elephant +4, and a whale is DM+6. There is no reason why vehicles and animals should use a different scale, especially since a biotech vehicle is both. And how big is a barn door, exactly? Might it not be easier to hit a barn door than an elephant? (Also makes me even less impressed than my not-at-all-high regard for the big white hunter shooting an elephant, even in his pajamas...)

I usually try and abstract that with how easy it is to cause damage, not how easy it is to hit. A robot (or animal), a vehicle, and a ship with equal sizes gets shot with a 9mm - an animal is probably going to shit itself and run at best. A robot with densely packed electromechanics will probably start malfunctioning if a bullet lands anywhere, even if it's not enough to disable. A vehicle has decent odds of carrying on without stopping, maybe it hits the engine block or some nonessential component. A ship may not even notice - even if it passes through the outer hull, through the crawlspace, and into the inner hull, it'll probably just pass through a corridor.

... That said, juggling that many DMs is not great.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

I actually have enjoyed using the Locomotion and manipulator rules for High Guard vessels, simply upping the scale to dtons instead of slots/spaces.

I have several spacecraft that are capable of driving onland, or walking on asteroids, or even swimming around.

The biotech rules actually port over well, too. Losing 75% of your useable tonnage makes sense and simplifies it well.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I usually try and abstract that with how easy it is to cause damage, not how easy it is to hit. A robot (or animal), a vehicle, and a ship with equal sizes gets shot with a 9mm - an animal is probably going to shit itself and run at best. A robot with densely packed electromechanics will probably start malfunctioning if a bullet lands anywhere, even if it's not enough to disable. A vehicle has decent odds of carrying on without stopping, maybe it hits the engine block or some nonessential component. A ship may not even notice - even if it passes through the outer hull, through the crawlspace, and into the inner hull, it'll probably just pass through a corridor.

... That said, juggling that many DMs is not great.

Scale is simple. It only applies within your size category. For things outside of your size category, take the maximum plus or minus of 6 for the DM. If you are shooting ship-scale to personal scale, double it. -12 DM to shoot a person with a ship in space.

Or something along those lines.

Although, the only reason We even have Scales, is because people do not like using large numbers.

 

[IanBruntlett]

The term Anglo Saxon refers to a group in England durning the Middle Ages that spoke old English and is totally nonsensical today. If you were going for WASP which was an American thing and even that term is long out of date referring to the major economically powerful families of the early to mid 20th century. Since the raise of none English families and the economic fall of many of the WASP families they are no longer a legitimate power. So in either case your statement makes little sense.

As for hardening your vehicle against hacking I totally agree but your reference was vague at best.

Maybe the term "anglosphere" would be helpful here?

An·glo·sphere ˈaŋ-glə-ˌsfir. : the countries of the world in which the English language and cultural values predominate.

 

[tytalan]

Maybe the term "anglosphere" would be helpful here?

An·glo·sphere ˈaŋ-glə-ˌsfir. : the countries of the world in which the English language and cultural values predominate.

more accurate than Anglo-Saxon or WASP still if you use that one, you're only talking a handful of countries not even the majority of Europe. while English is one of the most common languages it's only the primary language in the US, Canada, Britian, Australia and a handful of minor countries. also, those Cultural values are shared by many non-English speaking countries. personally, i think we should avoid terms that can potentially be taken as a slight to various groups.