Uncanny Dodge & Thieves

slaughterj

Mongoose
I'm pretty surprised that Thieves never get Uncanny Dodge, just Barbarians and Pirates do. Anybody else have any thoughts on this, whether they should get it, why they didn't get it, etc.? It seems like it could be added to the Special Ability list for Thieves (and then everyone likely would select it at 6th level...).
 
Yes, I've always thought the thief class was a little too much of a sneak attack-only class. If I was to write up the class, I'd remove the sneak attack style ability (so sneak attack would be only d6's) and instead give them Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge.

slaughterj said:
It seems like it could be added to the Special Ability list for Thieves (and then everyone likely would select it at 6th level...).
Yeah, it would probably compete with the Opportunist ability (which is really great!) for first choice.
 
I'm thinking that the simple fix would be for them to get Uncanny Dodge at 4th level instead of Light-Footed, and if they want Light-Footed, they can just pick that up as a feat or special ability anytime.
 
slaughterj said:
I'm thinking that the simple fix would be for them to get Uncanny Dodge at 4th level instead of Light-Footed, and if they want Light-Footed, they can just pick that up as a feat or special ability anytime.
That works.
 
Plus, put Improved Uncanny Dodge in the list of Thief Special Abilities so they can pick that up along the way if desired.
 
Were I to venture a guess, I'd suppose that it is because in most Conan stories, most professional thieves avoid combat whenever possible. When they do fight, they fight in numbers using ambush tactics or fight from a distance using stealth to take enemies out before they know what hit them.

Hence the reason why sneak attacks/sneak specializations and jumping out of the way of traps abilities are emphasized so heavily but dodging in a fight isn't.

Barbarians and pirates, by contrast, live lives that require regular violent conflict. Since barbarians do not have access to the heavier armors usually and such things are impractical on a ship (try swimming in even leather armor and see how far you get), it makes sense for pirates and barbarians to get these skills that improve their fighting mobility.
 
Thamilon said:
Were I to venture a guess, I'd suppose that it is because in most Conan stories, most professional thieves avoid combat whenever possible. When they do fight, they fight in numbers using ambush tactics or fight from a distance using stealth to take enemies out before they know what hit them.

Maybe so, but when fighting, often thieves would be fighting other thieves, and being wide open to a sneak attack from the first one with initiative or the enemy thief hiding in ambush doesn't seem to make much sense...
 
slaughterj said:
Maybe so, but when fighting, often thieves would be fighting other thieves, and being wide open to a sneak attack from the first one with initiative or the enemy thief hiding in ambush doesn't seem to make much sense...

It makes perfect sense, actually. Thieves are dependent upon getting the first attack or the low blows in a fight. Against an experienced fighter, they don't have much chance UNLESS they are sneak attacking. I see no reason why another thief should have any particular defense against sneak attacks, save that they would probably have a better chance of seeing an ambush coming (higher listen and spot)...
 
What you say makes sense, but (1) it is surprising to strip the ability from the class from D&D, and (2) thieves have to continually be concerned with surprises and sneak attacks themselves and uncanny dodge is a way to be attuned and react to such danger.
 
Conan, moreso then D&D, is built to be a multi-classing game. If Barbarians and Pirates have Uncanny Dodge, then it's made mush easier for a Theif to just take a level in either of those classes and gain (or proceed toward gaining) the special abilities of the other classes.

In other words, this game isn't meant to be a one class wonder style RPG experience. Players are encouraged to venture off into other classes to pick up those things that thier main class of choice doesn't have.
 
Sutek said:
Conan, moreso then D&D, is built to be a multi-classing game. If Barbarians and Pirates have Uncanny Dodge, then it's made mush easier for a Theif to just take a level in either of those classes and gain (or proceed toward gaining) the special abilities of the other classes.

In other words, this game isn't meant to be a one class wonder style RPG experience. Players are encouraged to venture off into other classes to pick up those things that thier main class of choice doesn't have.

That's all well and good in theory, but I've never much agreed with that. If a Barbarian branches off to other things, he never gets the highest levels of Versatility or Damage Reduction. The same for other classes, they never get the chance for the high level special abilities of their class, if multiclassing occurs regularly. Plus, you likely miss out or severely delay the bonus feats you get for favored classes. I'd say those sorts of things discourage rather than encourage multiclassing.
 
Well, in Conan, the concept of "prefered classes" was changed to make it add feats to the characters. It's not a limiter like it is in D&D, meaning that a character is limited in the number of classes he can have before suffering EXP penalties. In Conan, it's a benefit only because all classes are unrestricted for all races.

What happened then was that the designers made classes "carry" certain class features that distinguish them from the rest. The comment above that Barbarians get Uncanny Dodge because they tend to fight more straight up and need it to get out of sticky situations. However, Thieves stick to the shadows and wait for opportunities to strike, thus getting sneak attack boosted and also getting it at 1st level instead of 3rd.

The idea behind this is that combining classes to get cool, more useful combos becomes the paradigm instead of having to stick to only one or two classes (three is her dto pull of under the 3.X EXP penalty restrictions) and having to make the best pairing.

Saying that multi-classing in Conan causes certain classes to "never get the chance for the high level special abilities of their class" is just erroneous. Of course they have "the chance". But if you choose ot multi-class all you're doing is willfully postponing your character gaining those class features. You aren't negating the chance that you'll get there. You're just accepting that it'll take a little longer.

If anything is discouraging anything, it might be the speed at which multiclassed character gagin class features. However, the off-set is that they get much higher saves than non-multiclassed characters. The only way one would "severly delay" anything is to basically not level up, too, and that's a process that's entirely up to the GM as to how much EXP characters get, or even if they gain EXP at all for that matter.

i just don't see where you're coming from here, slaughterj. :?
 
I agree with Sutek that Conan is quite multiclass-happy.

The only 'exception' might actually be the barbarian class as mentioned, because it does gain a lot of very powerful stuff from level 10 onwards. So a barbarian might actually be better off staying single-class and proceeding as fast as possible towards the higher versatility stuff, DR, unconquerable etc.
But for the other classes, I don't really see them as 'loosing out' if they don't get to the higher levels of their class (soldiers and thieves in particular are great for multiclassing).

(Well, actually, is you're a sorcerer you might also want to stay single-class scholar.)
 
Good point, tro. But, in a way, that desire to stay exclusive in the Barbarian and Scholar classes reflects those "occupations" or cultural roles perfectly: Barbarians usually stay that way and Scholars only really get powerful by sticking to thier studies.

The mere fact that you can take a single level of Thief and move on without penalty should be a perfect indication of how multi-class freindly Conan is...

8)
 
Just because the Conan RPG enables multiclasses easier than DnD doesn't mean it encourages it by any means.

First of all, the book itself says "characters are encouraged to stick to one class for at least ten levels so as to gain the maximum number of feats under the Favored Class rules." (Player's Guide, p. 57) Further, "[r]ather than allowing for easier multi-classing for characters of that race and class, favored classes grant bonus feats." (PG, p. 25)

Now, for some specifics. Barbarians and Scholars clearly gain level-dependent benefits such that switching class makes little sense, as we all agree. But other classes do as well. A Noble gets his "Do you know who I am" at 11th level - if you switch to Pirate to get Uncanny Dodge at 4th level, then you delayed that ability to 15th level (probbably can't switch to Barbarian, see below), and can't get Absolute Power at the Noble 20th level. Borderer and Nomad each have special abilities that go up every several levels (I'm not talking about terrain) that can't be acquired elsewhere, e.g., Nomad's Mobility chain. Thieves and Pirates have sneak attack that will suffer if they go elsewhere.

Also, one basically cannot become a Noble later on ("it is not possible for a non-noble to gain a level in the noble class once play has begun, except with special dispensation from the Games Master"), so switching to that is not really an option. (PG, p. 72) One cannot easily become a Barbarian or Nomad ("a character who did not start out as a barbarian or nomad, for example, will need to live extensively with an appropriate barbarian tribe or nomad clan before he can reasonably take a level in that class"). (PG, p. 57) I would say that some similar situations would need to be the case for Pirate or Scholar as well. Therefore, there are limited options to even multi-class into, if multi-classing is desired.

Finally, what reason do people have to multiclass? To Soldier for some feats and combat, to Pirate for sneak attack and uncanny dodge, to Thief for skills and sneak attack. That's about it.

That doesn't sound like much encouragement to me - not from the book's general statements, not from the bonus feats for not changing, not from missing limited availability high level special abilities for many classes, not from what classes one can even switch into (these are limited), and not from what you can even get from another class with just several levels. So maybe with all this, you can see where I'm coming from as to why multiclassing is not encouraged in Conan.
 
No, I don't.

I don't see where you coming from at all.

If multiclassing weren't intended to be a promoted part of the game, there would be integral penalties to doing so. There aren't. In fact, it's almost a bonus to do so (other than delaying class specific benefits).

Besides that, I gotta think that since Conan himself is a multiclassed character, multiclass characters being common is something the designers had in mind from the games inception.

You are free to disagree.
 
I think its worth noting that some priesthoods require you to be multiclassed to join. So ciratinly soem scholars are encouraged to multiclass.
 
Sutek said:
No, I don't.

I don't see where you coming from at all.

If multiclassing weren't intended to be a promoted part of the game, there would be integral penalties to doing so. There aren't. In fact, it's almost a bonus to do so (other than delaying class specific benefits).

Besides that, I gotta think that since Conan himself is a multiclassed character, multiclass characters being common is something the designers had in mind from the games inception.

You are free to disagree.

Hey, it's okay to disagree, this is a subjective area, but I think I laid out a number of solid reasons why Conan doesn't significantly promote multi-classing. Sure, multi-classing is a bit easier than D&D, but being a bit easier than something considered hard doesn't make something easy - walking 3 days without water in the Shemitish desert is hard, and only doing 2 days is easier, but it still isn't easy or encouraged!
 
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