Triggy's Armageddon Ship Analysis

[emperorpenguin]

Katadder: Usually when people complain about a ship being overpowered it's because they've fought it and been stuffed by it.

When the people USING that ship (myself, Triggy and PaulyD are certainly 3 centauri players I know of who say the Tertius is overpowered) say that it is too good, that is when you should take notice.

I say the Tertius is too good because unless it was forced upon me I'd never choose a Primus (which I consider the best non Minbari battle ship) over a Tertius.
Likewise a wall of 4AD sulusts get my vote over centurions, dargans, altarians. The prefect with hull 6 is the only real alternative. In fact 2 sulusts get you more AD than a primus.

 

[Twin-Linked Aldades]

Everywhere I read people state the EA fighter is `almost always a Thunderbolt`. Am I really the only schmuck that prefers the Starfury over the Thunderbolt, the TWL and better dogfight makes me find them better (SFoS era, give that PDF in the download section Mongoose, pleaaasseeeee *end whine for 5 min) even for capital huning

 

[emperorpenguin]

Everywhere I read people state the EA fighter is `almost always a Thunderbolt`. Am I really the only schmuck that prefers the Starfury over the Thunderbolt, the TWL and better dogfight makes me find them better (SFoS era, give that PDF in the download section Mongoose, pleaaasseeeee *end whine for 5 min) even for capital huning

I usually field a mix of the two when playing as EA but yeah the starfury is a great little fighter.

 

[Triggy]

OK, Centauri then. In the following comparisons I'm only stating bottom lines (rounded off) but again can elaborate if you'd prefer. Starting with the Primus/Secundus/Tertius:

Primus vs Vorlon Destroyer
Primus does 30 damage per turn
Destroyer does 10 damage per turn
Pretty even matchup, Primus comes out slightly on top, has fighters and can use special actions but loses out slightly on criticals and manoevrabitlity.

Primus vs Omega Destroyer
Primus does 10.4 damage per turn
Omega does 5.8 damage per turn
Primus is easily better than the (new) Omega even if it does have superior fighters and aft beams. The non-boresight, non-interceptable beam on the Primus makes it. Note that against different foes the Omega is still a good choice.

Primus vs Tinashi
Primus does 11.4 damage per turn
Tinashi does 16.2 damage per turn
Another very good matchup here. Tactics with stealth and fighters are key but fundamentally they're very effective ships against each other.

Primus vs Drakh Cruiser
Primus does 16 per damage per turn
Cruiser does 5.75 damage per turn
This is the only matchup where the Primus demolishes its prey. However, much of this is due to the GEG mechanic not working very well at all against huge weapons such as the Primus battle laser. Against multiple smaller weapons the Drakh Cruiser is far better than here.

Primus vs G'Quan
Primus does 13.3 damage per turn
G'Quan does 11.8 damage per turn
Almost exactly level in abilities including turns, fighters and weapons.


I could go on but suffice to say the Primus is an excellent ship and even if you think it is a one trick pony, that trick is pretty awesome. Where it tends to be weaker is against hordes but that's what fleet support is for. Against other large ships such as Battle, War or Armageddon ships the Primus is a beast.

I don't think I need to explain how the Tertius is better than the Primus as everyone seems to accept this. My job here was to show that the Primus was at least balanced if not better than many other ships.

 

[Triggy]

Everywhere I read people state the EA fighter is `almost always a Thunderbolt`. Am I really the only schmuck that prefers the Starfury over the Thunderbolt, the TWL and better dogfight makes me find them better (SFoS era, give that PDF in the download section Mongoose, pleaaasseeeee *end whine for 5 min) even for capital huning

Starfurys are great, as are Thunderbolt. What happens is EA can usually take enough flights so that regular Starfurys can overload the enemy then Thunderbolts can punch through the gaps and hit the enemy capital ships hard.

the tigara is beard at the moment but with the new stealth rules it should be ok, hopefully.
The Hyperion has great firepower but weak damage resistance. They attract fire like nobody's business and usually go bang as a result.


Katadder: Usually when people complain about a ship being overpowered it's because they've fought it and been stuffed by it.

When the people USING that ship (myself, Triggy and PaulyD are certainly 3 centauri players I know of who say the Tertius is overpowered) say that it is too good, that is when you should take notice.

I say the Tertius is too good because unless it was forced upon me I'd never choose a Primus (which I consider the best non Minbari battle ship) over a Tertius.
Likewise a wall of 4AD sulusts get my vote over centurions, dargans, altarians. The prefect with hull 6 is the only real alternative. In fact 2 sulusts get you more AD than a primus.

The Tigara is OK now but still a little powerful, hence my suggestion

I've tried to back up my reasoning with numbers but you have an excellent point when most Centauri players in a competative setting would never even think of taking other ships than the Tertius or Prefect (or Sulust) as they are not just better than the other ships in their fleet but better than their opponents' too.

 

[katadder]

well if you want to keep tertius out set ur campaigns before 2263.
as for primus v omega, if they both get beams on the primus is on top but omega has longer range, however if the omega moves to 12" it brings an extra weapon into play, and also has more interceptors/fighters and with new edition more damage too. add in that if the fighters ignore eahc other sentris are poor and the omega has anti fighter weapons where no version of the primus does and you see how it gets better.

versus the g'quan again the g'quan out ranges the primus and once close up totall outguns it, especially if using ship busters, in fact a g'quan with ships busters out guns a tertius apart from rear arcs.

well the minbari have alot of choices, with the tinashi being as manouverable as it is it never needs to get close enough for anyone elses secondaries and its Beam is less than centauri but precise, and centauri will only see it 50% of the time. add in a twin linked mini beam and you have the king of the battle level ships IMO.

as i said at start tho to limit ships set timelines. also dont forget the centauri are the next most advanced race ofter the minbari and altho have good raid/battle ships suffer at lower PLs where the ka'tocs, ka'tans and sagis of the world come into play.

 

[Locutus9956]

Everywhere I read people state the EA fighter is `almost always a Thunderbolt`. Am I really the only schmuck that prefers the Starfury over the Thunderbolt, the TWL and better dogfight makes me find them better (SFoS era, give that PDF in the download section Mongoose, pleaaasseeeee *end whine for 5 min) even for capital huning

I tend to field mostly starfuries with only about a third of my fighters being T-Bolts. This is PARTLY due to the fact that I simply HAVE more bases of Starfuries (thank you posseidon box...) but mostly I tend to use my fighters to defend against enemy fighters more than attack with them and for this Furies are clearly better

 

[Reaverman]

Everywhere I read people state the EA fighter is `almost always a Thunderbolt`. Am I really the only schmuck that prefers the Starfury over the Thunderbolt, the TWL and better dogfight makes me find them better (SFoS era, give that PDF in the download section Mongoose, pleaaasseeeee *end whine for 5 min) even for capital huning

I usually field a mix of the two when playing as EA but yeah the starfury is a great little fighter.

Agreed, both are useful.

 

[Reaverman]

Everywhere I read people state the EA fighter is `almost always a Thunderbolt`. Am I really the only schmuck that prefers the Starfury over the Thunderbolt, the TWL and better dogfight makes me find them better (SFoS era, give that PDF in the download section Mongoose, pleaaasseeeee *end whine for 5 min) even for capital huning

I tend to field mostly starfuries with only about a third of my fighters being T-Bolts. This is PARTLY due to the fact that I simply HAVE more bases of Starfuries (thank you posseidon box...) but mostly I tend to use my fighters to defend against enemy fighters more than attack with them and for this Furies are clearly better

I like to maul Whitestars with mine, the are definetly worth their bang for the buck.

 

[emperorpenguin]

The Tigara is OK now but still a little powerful, hence my suggestion .

At the last tourney I ambushed a Tigara and got my ass handed to me, that thing's fire ripped through the surrounding centauri ships which couldn't scratch it! At least now at the range that battle was fought at I'd get a +1 to my stealth roll. So that might balance the hideous fire, only time and games will tell!

 

[emperorpenguin]

well if you want to keep tertius out set ur campaigns before 2263. .

not much comfort to tournament players though....

Myself and Pauly D were using Tertii at the last tourney and I'd use one again over a Primus, it's a no-brainer!

 

[Triggy]

well if you want to keep tertius out set ur campaigns before 2263.
as for primus v omega, if they both get beams on the primus is on top but omega has longer range, however if the omega moves to 12" it brings an extra weapon into play, and also has more interceptors/fighters and with new edition more damage too. add in that if the fighters ignore eahc other sentris are poor and the omega has anti fighter weapons where no version of the primus does and you see how it gets better.

versus the g'quan again the g'quan out ranges the primus and once close up totall outguns it, especially if using ship busters, in fact a g'quan with ships busters out guns a tertius apart from rear arcs.

well the minbari have alot of choices, with the tinashi being as manouverable as it is it never needs to get close enough for anyone elses secondaries and its Beam is less than centauri but precise, and centauri will only see it 50% of the time. add in a twin linked mini beam and you have the king of the battle level ships IMO.

as i said at start tho to limit ships set timelines. also dont forget the centauri are the next most advanced race ofter the minbari and altho have good raid/battle ships suffer at lower PLs where the ka'tocs, ka'tans and sagis of the world come into play.

The G'Quan only outranges it with its e-mines and frankly, once it gets into close range it has equal firepower! Do you want me to show you the numbers again but in more detail?

The Tinashi doesn't need to get close, true, but then again neither does the Primus...and it has the fighters to make use of their scanning. The Primus is actually as tough as the Tinashi at virtually any range you care to name. However, Tertius aside, I still agree with you that the Tinashi is the king of Battle PL ships...but the Primus is too.

With the Omega - interceptors are almos a moot point. Anything above interceptors 1 has very little effect over the first die. Interceptors 8 only stops 1.5 more shots per turn than interceptors 1. The Omega may have (slightly) greater range on both its primaries and secondaries but frankly its primaries are much, much weaker than the Primus. Also throw into the equation CAF of the Primus and it will win every time in a one on one. I still agree with you though that the Omega is a good ship but it has a totally different battlefield role - that of support. Its beams are decent, its fighters good and its close in firepower good too.

Finally on the issue of timelines. It's priority levels that are there to ensure ships are balanced, timelines are for flavour and making the game closer to the show's history. If I didn't want a particular ship in a game/campaign I wouldn't fiddle with timelines I would just disallow or change the ship.

 

[Triggy]

well if you want to keep tertius out set ur campaigns before 2263. .

not much comfort to tournament players though....

Myself and Pauly D were using Tertii at the last tourney and I'd use one again over a Primus, it's a no-brainer!

Surely the plural is Tertiuses as Tertius is a proper noun and therefore doesn't change when you pluralise it

I agree with you totally on the choice of ship though. I chose an Octurion instead but it doesn't have any variants to choose from.

The Tigara is OK now but still a little powerful, hence my suggestion .

At the last tourney I ambushed a Tigara and got my ass handed to me, that thing's fire ripped through the surrounding centauri ships which couldn't scratch it! At least now at the range that battle was fought at I'd get a +1 to my stealth roll. So that might balance the hideous fire, only time and games will tell!

That's hopefully what will happen with the change to stealth and my look at the Minbari is based upon the new stealth rules.

 

[emperorpenguin]

versus the g'quan again the g'quan out ranges the primus and once close up totall outguns it, especially if using ship busters, in fact a g'quan with ships busters out guns a tertius apart from rear arcs.y.

The G'Quan only outranges it with its e-mines and frankly, once it gets into close range it has equal firepower! Do you want me to show you the numbers again but in more detail?.

In fact if using standard e-mines I'd not even break a sweat, they'll do sod all to a Tertius.
If using ship-breakers then the range is reduced to 10" and can be intercepted. Meanwhile I'll have been using CAF! on the G'Quan or moving to stay out of boresight. By the time you're in range to use ship breakers they might have been critted off your ship......

 

[emperorpenguin]

Surely the plural is Tertiuses as Tertius is a proper noun and therefore doesn't change when you pluralise it

I agree with you totally on the choice of ship though. I chose an Octurion instead but it doesn't have any variants to choose from..

Is it? oops and I'm supposed to be an english teacher.....


IIRC you picked the Octurion so you'd only have to paint one ship! :lol:

 

[katadder]

in which case its a beam battle so may as well have primus to have its fighters and extra interceptor.

a g'quans beams have longer range but obviously boresight. then you can use short charge just for some hits anyway and one interceptor isnt going to stop 12AD of ship busters at close range, and thats where the g'quan outguns a tertius let alone a primus.

 

[emperorpenguin]

in which case its a beam battle so may as well have primus to have its fighters and extra interceptor.

a g'quans beams have longer range but obviously boresight. then you can use short charge just for some hits anyway and one interceptor isnt going to stop 12AD of ship busters at close range, and thats where the g'quan outguns a tertius let alone a primus.

take fighters against e-mine Narn? :shock:
No way! The tertius it'd be, then by the time he's in e-mine range you'll hit him with your plasma accelerators

My brother is a (quite good)Narn player and he can't mention the Tertius without swearing, he hates the ship!

 

[Triggy]

Surely the plural is Tertiuses as Tertius is a proper noun and therefore doesn't change when you pluralise it

I agree with you totally on the choice of ship though. I chose an Octurion instead but it doesn't have any variants to choose from..

Is it? oops and I'm supposed to be an english teacher.....


IIRC you picked the Octurion so you'd only have to paint one ship! :lol:

I'm not saying I'm definitely right on the plural but that's what I think.

You're quite right on the Octurion - short timeframe to paint things up in (one night) so fewer ships to paint was a good thing and at the time I was in my Centauri phase so hence the Octurion

in which case its a beam battle so may as well have primus to have its fighters and extra interceptor.

a g'quans beams have longer range but obviously boresight. then you can use short charge just for some hits anyway and one interceptor isnt going to stop 12AD of ship busters at close range, and thats where the g'quan outguns a tertius let alone a primus.

I've been generous and assumed the e-mines hit three ships each time so switching to the (short ranged) ship-breaker e-mines actually decreases the firepower at long range and with interceptors on the Primus doesn't actually improve the short range firepower at all!!!

 

[katadder]

in which case its a beam battle so may as well have primus to have its fighters and extra interceptor.

a g'quans beams have longer range but obviously boresight. then you can use short charge just for some hits anyway and one interceptor isnt going to stop 12AD of ship busters at close range, and thats where the g'quan outguns a tertius let alone a primus.

take fighters against e-mine Narn? :shock:
No way! The tertius it'd be, then by the time he's in e-mine range you'll hit him with your plasma accelerators

My brother is a (quite good)Narn player and he can't mention the Tertius without swearing, he hates the ship!

i play both narn and centauri and i know the tertius is powerful but it should be, its still out gunned by a g'quan for that round when you all firing everything. 8AD plasma accelerators versus 12AD ship busters and then 6 AD twin linked versus 8AD twinlinked and 6 AD

 

[Triggy]

in which case its a beam battle so may as well have primus to have its fighters and extra interceptor.

a g'quans beams have longer range but obviously boresight. then you can use short charge just for some hits anyway and one interceptor isnt going to stop 12AD of ship busters at close range, and thats where the g'quan outguns a tertius let alone a primus.

take fighters against e-mine Narn? :shock:
No way! The tertius it'd be, then by the time he's in e-mine range you'll hit him with your plasma accelerators

My brother is a (quite good)Narn player and he can't mention the Tertius without swearing, he hates the ship!

i play both narn and centauri and i know the tertius is powerful but it should be, its still out gunned by a g'quan for that round when you all firing everything. 8AD plasma accelerators versus 12AD ship busters and then 6 AD twin linked versus 8AD twinlinked and 6 AD

Two words:

Interceptors

Beams

The secondary all come out closer to even than you'd think (the G'Quan is slightly ahead still) but the battle lasers do about two thirds of the damage a Primus puts out (half of what a Tertius puts out) and it's on this count the Primus earns its keep.