Triggy's Armageddon Ship Analysis

[Nightmares about Minbari]

On the subject of luck vs averages.

Recent large battle, Bin'Tak was guarding our flank. Enemy sulusts were deployed in front of our entire fleet (refused flank deployment), enemy won the initiative and fired the sulusts first. Battle lasers hit the Bin'Tak, criticals ensue, Weapons: cat explosion. Bin'Tak can't fire.

If you ignore averages, that suggest that the Bin'Tak is way too week and should be upgunned, anybody think that's valid? No? Wonder why.

Coincidentally, Bin took two more criticals in rapid succession; engines offline (no movement) followed by Vitals: engineering, no repairs. So a war priority ship that was guarding our flanks ended up not firing a shot all battle. Was going to say doing nothing, but that's not true, it did absorb a massive amount of enemy fire that might have been directed at our other ships.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Triggy, the Tertius would start the game deployed forward to race ahead and get its secondary guns in range ASAP. After all, they're the only benefit over a Primus and if you're going to skulk at the back and fire your lasers at things you might as well leave the Tertius at home.

As for the Prefect being a broken ship on par with the over-armed Saggitarius, I say only this: cobblers. Its firepower isn't significantly greater than the Centurion; for 1AD of beams it sacrifices 4AD of twin arrays so it's not a simple upgrade. For the extra hull point it sacrifices 2" of movement and a 45 degree turn, so that's not a simple upgrade either. Is the extra AD on the laser and the extra hull point worth what you lose to get them? Probably, but can the Prefect perform the same role as the Centurion? I doubt it.

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

@CDTD: What role exactly do you see the Centurion performing then, just curious?

 

[CZuschlag]

In this matchup, I actually think pure Shipbreakers are the wrong way to go. I'd prefer Ionics. This functionally means I'll go 1 and 1 --- an Ionic, and a Standard or Shipbreaker. You desparately need to rip off that CAF order, and, later, get into the close-range battle swirly; killing any Come About order may be huge.

Knocking off the CAF turns it into 3 beams vs. 6. If using the revised G'Quan (recommended), that's 4 vs. 6 which is a rough proportion of the two's damage thresholds. It's likely with the reduced Primus' firepower that an overrun will occur, and then, you might get spades of your twins and light pulse versus his weak side twin arrays and interceptor system. Sounds like an interesting fight, no?

Oh ... right, I forgot-- you take a Tertius with REAR-FACING Plasma Accelerators. Those things are very important! A Tertius is more than happy to All Power and get behind the G'Quan, because it massively outguns its opponent here, too! Even if the firepower matchup afore comes about even, the massive aft disparity tips the balance (and Triggy, by the way, this is, in my opinion, why the Primus doesn't necessarily eat the Drakh Cruiser's lunch ... all power behind the Primus, and use that blissful 4 AD rear-facing beam against zero opposition (his light stuff is almost irrelevant against the GEG -- aha, can't do that against the Tertius either!).

When a variant of a ship denies a fundamental tactics to beat is sister ship while giving up almost nothing in return, it's busted. Plain simple. Face it, Captain David and katadder --- its far, far, far more likely that 2 people are wrong than twenty (again, see my reference to the execellent book, The Wisdom of Crowds.)

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I've said the Tertius rear guns are a bit much, since no other Centauri ship has significant aft firepower and certainly not at that magnitude. In fact I've admitted that the Tertius could use a little tweak here and there. It's the Prefect and Sulust that concern me most and I've yet to hear an argument that proves they're anything other than perfectly fair ships for their PL.

Don't get me started on the mob mentality...

 

[katadder]

almost everyone else has beam behind, and best way is to stay in side arc of a tertius.

as for the wisdom of crowds, take a group of intelligent people, put them ina crowd and watch the intelligence shrink, the human race has a mob mentality and a sheep one so put them in a crowd and they follow the "strongest" person.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

@CDTD: What role exactly do you see the Centurion performing then, just curious?

Sorry I didn't respond to this in my previous post. The Centurion is a fast attack ship; faster and more agile than anything that outguns it, and outguns anything that's faster and more agile than it is.

 

[Celisasu]

I've just started using Centauri as my second fleet(Narn is my first). I haven't seen any reason to take the Primus over the Tertius. Two fighter flights? So what? The Tertius packs so much more firepower than the Primus that I'd never bother.

Toss in the fact that if the Primus and G'Quan were in the same fleet that I'd always choose a Primus...and the Tertius is better than the Primus....see where this is going?

 

[katadder]

actualy if i had to choose between a primus and a g'quan i would take the g'quan.

also dont forget unlike most the major races if wasnt for the variants the Centauri only have one battleship.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Two fighter flights, so what? Say that again when the Frazis from the G'Quan are scoring damage on your Tertius and dodging your secondary guns.

Ask Katadder about fighters doding five or six hits successfully if you think you'll get them anyway...

 

[CZuschlag]

There's almost no way, everyone. We're never getting through to the diehard Centauris. Sometimes, telling a person that there's something busted with their pet ships is impossible. It's too ego-crushing to admit that you've won with unfair advantages all this time, and not with skill. And, if the subject has a losing record, it's even more ego-bruising.

We can drop all the math and statistics we want at 'em but it won't work. It's like a wrestler bashing another with a steel chair: no matter how many times you hit 'em, they won't get any smarter.

 

[katadder]

well as a narn player b4 a centauri player i just say thats crap as i have no probs with tertius, perhaps saying its broken is cos you havent the skills to take it on with what you have one ship i will agree is broken is the saggi.

 

[kritikalfailure]

Can anyone direct me to where I might get the updated Tournament rules? I've seen many a mention to the Armageddon pdf but I cannot find it.

 

[Junior]

Can anyone direct me to where I might get the updated Tournament rules? I've seen many a mention to the Armageddon pdf but I cannot find it.

Its only going to the few folks who are participating in the next mongoose sponsored tournie.

 

[emperorpenguin]

, perhaps saying its broken is cos you havent the skills to take it on with what you have .

the "fool's argument" rears it's head..... :wink:

So let me see....I have problems defeating this ship? Err no I PLAY as this ship and it is superior to the already superb Primus but with no real drawback

And saying that averages are worthless....really cop on, how else are you supposed to balance ships? Play one game in which somebody rolls all 6's and the other all 1's and declare mission accomplished?

 

[katadder]

i never said averages were worthless, also not saying tertius is broken, i know its better than the primus in almost all respects. make the Liati a battle level ship we might have something to compete for slots (as it stands i would choose a primus over a Liati, let alone the 2 i could get).

 

[emperorpenguin]

i never said averages were worthless, also not saying tertius is broken, i know its better than the primus in almost all respects. make the Liati a battle level ship we might have something to compete for slots (as it stands i would choose a primus over a Liati, let alone the 2 i could get).

No but Lord David, did I was writing a catch all reply to the responses since I was last on here

I agree there is need for competition at battle level. I've long tried to convince Matt to move the Dargan to there and give it back its B5 Wars role...

 

[katadder]

Dargan would need serious upgrade to go there, but if was upgraded i would use there, love that ship but as is dies very easy, is a bit like the centauri version of the hyperion but without interceptors.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Dargan would need serious upgrade to go there, but if was upgraded i would use there, love that ship but as is dies very easy, is a bit like the centauri version of the hyperion but without interceptors.

I thought you said the Sulust was the Centauri Hyperion :wink:

 

[Target]

Dargan would need serious upgrade to go there, but if was upgraded i would use there, love that ship but as is dies very easy, is a bit like the centauri version of the hyperion but without interceptors.

Giving her stealth would help and make her have rutarians as well if we want to have it at battle level. It is such a nice model and also i like the Kutai but hardly ever field the Kutai and the Dargan makes rare appearences in my fleet.
My main problem with the Centauri fleet is each ship almost has the same exact role but they are easy to use.
Every race should have carriers, scouts, support, fast attack, escort type ships just that they excel in certain areas eg EA Carriers and support, Centauri Fast Attack and so on. Narn Carrier wouldn't be as good as a EA one.