Travellers Needed - The Future of Traveller

[actionman]

Even High Guard disagrees with you. And I’m still waiting on your source for the jettisoned of the concept
“The seat of government for the Third Imperium is at Capital, an industrial and technological powerhouse, but due to the sheer distances and travel times involved within its star-spanning realm, the Imperial Navy is unable to be everywhere at once. As a result, the Imperium grants a large degree of autonomy to its subject worlds, demanding only that they abide by Imperial law and contribute to a united front against outside forces.” Pg. 3 High Guard 2022

It seems like @tytalan and @Vormaerin are in agreement. Vormaerin stated that the 3I ruling the space between the stars and Imperial government begins at the subsector level have been jettisoned / gotten rid of / no longer used, and you stated in your post above that Imperium grants a large degree of autonomy to its subject worlds, demanding that they abide by Imperial law and contribute to a united front. Both statements indicate that the subject worlds of the Imperium don't have total autonomy and the Imperium does enforce Imperial law on its member worlds.

Also, since the Imperium has no legislative body, Imperial law is really just Imperial decree, and the worlds of the Imperium have no official input as to what the Emperor decrees, I suspect conversations between Imperial officials and planetary governments go a little like this:

 

[tytalan]

I'm complaining about inconsistencies in Traveller lore, a single cup of which can keep a man complaining for a day.

Check out any game that’s been around for 30+ years you’ll get just as much lore inconsistency

 

[actionman]

This is a Traveller forum, which is the appropriate place to discuss problems with Traveller's lore, in the hopes that Mongoose will mitigate the issue in future products.

 

[tytalan]

It seems like @tytalan and @Vormaerin are in agreement. Vormaerin stated that the 3I ruling the space between the stars and Imperial government begins at the subsector level have been jettisoned / gotten rid of / no longer used, and you stated in your post above that Imperium grants a large degree of autonomy to its subject worlds, demanding that they abide by Imperial law and contribute to a united front. Both statements indicate that the subject worlds of the Imperium don't have total autonomy and the Imperium does enforce Imperial law on its member worlds.

No that’s not the case what I’ve posted is how it aways been other than contributing to the collected defense, obeying the 7 imperium laws (and yes there are only seven) individual worlds can do what they want with their world, they decide if they want to improve their infrastructure/TL, the individual worlds can have their own navy’s, their own Army’s, their own legal restrictions on stuff that can be imported. Their own laws.
Vormaerin has stated that the member worlds don’t have this level of autonomy but instead are ruled directly by the imperium especially in the core. He claims that there’s been a official change but the two quotes I posted straight for the books disagrees with this.

“ In the Third Imperium, the force that rules the space between the stars protects both commercial transportation and communication vessels and, as a result, controls all intercourse between worlds. The instrument of this control is the Imperial Navy. The seat of government for the Third Imperium is at Capital, an industrial and technological powerhouse, but due to the sheer distances and travel times involved within its star-spanning realm, the Imperial Navy is unable to be everywhere at once. As a result, the Imperium grants a large degree of autonomy to its subject worlds, demanding only that they abide by Imperial law and contribute to a united front against outside forces.”
From Highguard
“The Imperium commands the space between the stars, ensuring that civilisation endures and trade continues. Megacorporations and feudal lords conduct the bulk of this trade but there will always be a place for the free trader – hardy Travellers and adventurers on the fringes of Charted Space, dealing in strange goods and smuggled cargoes, doing whatever they can to make a Credit.”
From CRB
In neither case does it indicate that the imperium directly control the worlds themselves it even supports what I always stated that the imperium looks at member worlds as markets and suppliers.

 

[Vormaerin]

Ok I looked up the Type S air filter nonsense.

It's in CT Supplement 7, Traders & Gunboats, pg 16.

Peculiarities: The major fault of the type S scout/courier is its air system. Although of respectable quality for life support, it begins to smell after about three weeks of use. Thereafter, the smell becomes increasingly obnoxious, and most crew members find the smell intolerable after six weeks. The problem can be corrected by flushing the air system, which operation costs Cr1,000 for parts and components. Temporary respite may be obtained (for about a week) by replacing the system's air filters (at Cr200). Both these processes also require a plentiful supply of breathable air. Instead, the entire air system may be replaced with a better model; it costs Cr70,000 and requires sacrificing one ton of cargo space.

So I was wrong, the air system begins to smell after 3 weeks, not 2 weeks, and it looks like an aftermarket air system is available for the paltry sum of Cr70,000. It's still silly, as scout couriers would need the ability to operate away from maintenance facilities capable of flushing the air system. No wonder scouts have a low survival rate.

It's not the 70k that is the issue. It is the fact that it gets rid of 1/3 of the ship's already meager cargo capacity under the CT rules. And it was probably put in because they thought it was amusing and fitting for the old ships built to an old design that most Type S couriers are, especially those assigned to detached duty. Beat up old ships with weird nuisance issues is a pretty common trope in certain types of sci fi. Honestly, the bad air filters quirk is a lot less annoying than many of the quirks on the actual "old ships" table in MgT2e.

It is certainly not going to keep anyone impoverished any significant length of time, whether they sacrifice the cargo space or do the sporadic additional maintenance. Btw, there's nothing suggesting that you need facilities to do the purge, just breathable air.

Also, the Type S was originally a TL 10 design, IIRC? The Mongoose version, which does not have any reference to bad filters, is TL12.

Do keep in mind that this is the same organization that thinks a X-boat is a great design.

But, yes, you can literally imagine it however you want since none of this stuff exists. Maybe there was a good (or bad) reason that they picked that air system. Maybe no one expected the ship to actually be used on long deployments when it was designed. Maybe the procurement officer's girlfriend worked for the company that designed that air system. Maybe there was some design incompatibility.. "Must be able to filter out Arisian Pillow Mold" which requires some special element that tends to collect odors after a few years or decades of use, but doesn't have that issue when new.

Or, as the Mongoose 1e Referee's Aid 2 says about the Scout/Courier:
"The one feature of the Scout/Courier that everyone knows about is the problem with its air scrubbers, which causes the ship to stink after a few days. This is actually only a problem on some examples; most vessels have a perfectly workable air system. Some crews can be less than scrupulous about cleaning themselves and their ship, and may blame any odd smells on the legendary defective air scrubbers, which has contributed to the legend of the ‘smelly scout ship’. Of those vessels afflicted by the inadequate air treatment system, most were put right in refits many years ago, or had replacement systems built by their owners out of whatever parts were available. Some do retain the old system, and can at times be identified by the faint pong emanating from them when the airlocks are open, or by the odour clinging to their crewmembers."

Or, you can just ignore it because you don't like the idea. It's not a feature in the core rulebook description in CT, much less any later edition of the rules.

 

[Vormaerin]

Charted Space has the same issue that most game worlds have. Someone says something is true in a certain situation and, since that's the only thing known about the topic, it becomes a truism used all over the setting until it gets contradicted.

The idea that what is true about the Imperial Fringes such as the Spinward Marches is also true about all the rest of the Imperium does not hold up to scrutiny. It wasn't even implied in those early books. It absolutely makes no sense in the post GURPS Nobles Charted Space, which both T5 and Mongoose inhabit where there are nobles actually *doing things* at the planetary level. Marc Miller's Agent of the Imperium, while definitely an ATU as far as the published gameworld is concerned, definitely has nobles governing planets. But it also suggests that the Moot has legislative authority, because one of the major crises in the book that the Agent had to resolve resulted from the Moot being about to pass a resolution that the Empress didn't want to abide by.

Just ask yourself why would they need a Vegan Autonomous Zone or a Solomani Autonomous Zone if Imperial Government didn't actually govern in the core regions? What are they actually autonomous from?

Here's the reality: No one has ever defined the Imperial government in any detail. There's very little information on how it works or who does what or how it interacts with member planets. And the vast majority of the flimsy details we have about that government are talking about a barely controlled fringe that's more than twice as far (in travel time) from the Imperial Core as India was from England in the the 1700s.

 

[actionman]

Or, you can just ignore it because you don't like the idea. It's not a feature in the core rulebook description in CT, much less any later edition of the rules.

It looks like MgT 2e has dropped that reference, so that's a step in the right direction.

 

[actionman]

@Vormaerin

First of all, I'd like to emphasize that I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to look at the information presented as canon and draw logical, reasonable, and plausible conclusions as part of this discussion.

Tytalan stated:

No that’s not the case what I’ve posted is how it aways been other than contributing to the collected defense, obeying the 7 imperium laws (and yes there are only seven) individual worlds can do what they want with their world, they decide if they want to improve their infrastructure/TL, the individual worlds can have their own navy’s, their own Army’s, their own legal restrictions on stuff that can be imported. Their own laws.

Vormaerin has stated that the member worlds don’t have this level of autonomy but instead are ruled directly by the imperium especially in the core. He claims that there’s been a official change but the two quotes I posted straight for the books disagrees with this.

“ In the Third Imperium, the force that rules the space between the stars protects both commercial transportation and communication vessels and, as a result, controls all intercourse between worlds. The instrument of this control is the Imperial Navy. The seat of government for the Third Imperium is at Capital, an industrial and technological powerhouse, but due to the sheer distances and travel times involved within its star-spanning realm, the Imperial Navy is unable to be everywhere at once. As a result, the Imperium grants a large degree of autonomy to its subject worlds, demanding only that they abide by Imperial law and contribute to a united front against outside forces.”

From Highguard
“The Imperium commands the space between the stars, ensuring that civilisation endures and trade continues. Megacorporations and feudal lords conduct the bulk of this trade."
From CRB
In neither case does it indicate that the imperium directly control the worlds themselves it even supports what I always stated that the imperium looks at member worlds as markets and suppliers.

Since Tytalan is referring to the MgT 2e Core Rule Book, I'll stick to current 2e MgT books.

From Third Imperium:

"At its heart, the Imperium was intended to be a sprawling free-trade zone, its worlds free to chart their own fates within well defended borders." pg. 2

which makes it seem as if the Imperium is just a free trade zone that doesn't govern its member world, right?

But then it says,

"Referees and Travellers alike will find a detailed history of the Imperium and descriptions of its military forces, the feudal nobility who administer its worlds, the megacorporations that dominate its economy and other aspects of Imperial society." pg. 2

So it explicitly states feudal nobility, that are administering its member worlds. Feudal. On page 11, it states: "Noble patents and fiefs are not distributed equitably, nor are worlds or lands granted under enfeoffment always equivalent in value or prestige."

And then it says,

"The governments of Imperial worlds are independent."

But then it says,

"... the Imperial bureaucracy is present on most of its worlds, run by the nobility. Nobles serve as Imperial administrators, collecting taxes, interfacing with other Imperial agencies such as the navy and scouts, and making sure that the worlds of the Imperium abide by its laws"
pg. 4

And then it says,

"The Imperium does not impede upon the laws of its worlds unless they conflict with Imperial law. Imperial law is mostly vague, allowing the Emperor to alter it depending on circumstances but some Imperial laws are immutable."
pg. 4

But then it says,

"Imperial worlds do have some things in common: trade and the presence of the Imperial military and nobility."

But THEN it says,

"...the Third Imperium is a federation of worlds unified by free trade and open communication."

But THEN it says,

"The first Emperor established the empire based on the notion that free trade would enrich its citizens and bring civilisation to its worlds."

So is it a feudal empire, or is it a federation?? Or maybe it's a federation AND an empire, all at the same time (Schrodinger's Imperium?). It's like it's written especially to be flame war fuel, a cup of which can flame a man for a day.


So, the current MgT 2e Third Imperium sourcebook directly states that:

• The Imperium is a free trade zone, a federation, and an empire.
• The worlds of the Imperium are independent.
• The feudal nobility of the Imperium administer the Imperium's member worlds and enforce Imperial law on those worlds.
• Worlds are given as noble fiefs.
• The Imperial bureaucracy are present on most worlds.
• The presence of the Imperial military and the Imperial nobility is something the worlds of the Imperium have in common.

I think the only false statement is that the worlds of the Imperium are independent. Tytalan quoted the MgT 2e Core Rule Book as saying that the Imperium granted a large degree of autonomy to its worlds. A "large degree of autonomy" is definitely not the same as "independent". And, this large degree of autonomy was granted to member worlds. It was granted by the Imperium, and it can be withdrawn by the Imperium.


Conclusion:

The Imperium is a feudal empire, which practices free trade within its borders, and it governs it subject worlds directly with feudal lords, who are backed up by on-world bureaucracy and military forces. Despite this, the Imperium chooses to allow its subject worlds a large degree of autonomy provided they abide by Imperial law.

This is a strange new Mongoose Traveller Third Imperium, but at least its Type S air systems don't stink.

 

[Condottiere]

The Scoutship quote is probably a trope about being enclosed with a lot of people in a small space, which undoubtedly onboard wartime submarines was likely true.

 

[Sigtrygg]

No that’s not the case what I’ve posted is how it aways been other than contributing to the collected defense, obeying the 7 imperium laws (and yes there are only seven) individual worlds can do what they want with their world, they decide if they want to improve their infrastructure/TL, the individual worlds can have their own navy’s, their own Army’s, their own legal restrictions on stuff that can be imported. Their own laws.

It hasn't "always been". LBB:4 Mercenary states it is only worlds on the frontier that have the gift of extensive home rule, the 7 Imperial Laws were fanon made canon by T$ contributors not Marc or anyone at GDW.

Vormaerin has stated that the member worlds don’t have this level of autonomy but instead are ruled directly by the imperium especially in the core. He claims that there’s been a official change but the two quotes I posted straight for the books disagrees with this.

That's not what he's claiming, it is how you are taking it but it isn't what he said or what he means.
What he has restated is what was written many times until MGT

Imperial government starts at the subsector level with the dukes

“ In the Third Imperium, the force that rules the space between the stars protects both commercial transportation and communication vessels and, as a result, controls all intercourse between worlds. The instrument of this control is the Imperial Navy. The seat of government for the Third Imperium is at Capital, an industrial and technological powerhouse, but due to the sheer distances and travel times involved within its star-spanning realm, the Imperial Navy is unable to be everywhere at once. As a result, the Imperium grants a large degree of autonomy to its subject worlds, demanding only that they abide by Imperial law and contribute to a united front against outside forces.”
From Highguard

All that means is that the Imperial Navy is the authority while in space, since in space there is nothing to rule, because... the clue is in the name, it is empty space.

“The Imperium commands the space between the stars, ensuring that civilisation endures and trade continues. Megacorporations and feudal lords conduct the bulk of this trade but there will always be a place for the free trader – hardy Travellers and adventurers on the fringes of Charted Space, dealing in strange goods and smuggled cargoes, doing whatever they can to make a Credit.”
From CRB

The Core Rule Book should not be integrating setting into the rules, there should be a separate section - see The Traveller Book for example.
How does the Imperial Navy rules the space between the stars in Pioneer, T2300 or any bespoke setting?

In neither case does it indicate that the imperium directly control the worlds themselves it even supports what I always stated that the imperium looks at member worlds as markets and suppliers.

The clue is here "the Imperium grants a large degree of autonomy to its subject worlds"
How nice of them to grant something to a world, that they can take away with an Imperial Fleet and an Imperial Star Marine Regiment.

 

[Limpin Legin]

A "large degree of autonomy" is definitely not the same as "independent".

"Autonomy" means "the right to be independent." So, in practice one would necessarily imply the other.

And, this large degree of autonomy was granted to member worlds. It was granted by the Imperium, and it can be withdrawn by the Imperium.

Isn't that what happens and a system gets the Amber Zone rating?

The Imperium is a feudal empire,

It is also necessarily feudal because communications cannot travel FTL, because delays of weeks and months for news and documents to be communicated and exchanged (can't remember where I saw that, but it makes sense to me, unless someone can come up with an alternative critique.)

The Core Rule Book should not be integrating setting into the rules, there should be a separate section - see The Traveller Book for example.
How does the Imperial Navy rules the space between the stars in Pioneer, T2300 or any bespoke setting?

I liked a mention of the OTU in MgT2016 Rulebook, and was disappointed when it was removed. I think it helps beginners new to the game assess quite what they have purchased, but yes - you have raised a valuable point too, about the other settings: wouldn't it be good to mention 2300AD and Pioneer alongside the OTU Universe, along side each other? Perhaps all three in one chapter? As well as mentioning the elements to explore in generating a MTU? Would need to wait for the release of Pioneer, before that option would be meaningful, tho.

 

[Condottiere]

More like minimum interference.

Like Amish communities.

 

[Vormaerin]

@Vormaerin

First of all, I'd like to emphasize that I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to look at the information presented as canon and draw logical, reasonable, and plausible conclusions as part of this discussion.

My point is that there is no actual answer. You have to pick and choose which statements you want to hold valid and ignore others.

If the Imperium is governing worlds and has nobles doing it..what does the UWP government code mean? Khusgurlu is a couple jumps from Capital. It has a Count and a Knight. It's also a religious Autocracy populated entirely by clones where natural reproduction is punishable by death. Is the Count also the Pope or whatever? Is the religious autocrat not actually in charge? Who is actually making the Imperial Laws as they apply to Khusgurlu? Does the Count of Khusgurlu report to the Duke of Cemplas? Or directly to the Emperor? Dukes can't appoint lesser nobles, so they presumably can't fire them? The Bu & Embla do the Fifth Frontier war implies that the Marchioness of Ash reports to the Viscount of Ash. (The statement being: "The Marchioness of Ash is responsible for the long-term development of Ash, done in conjunction with the Imperial knight and overseen by the Viscount.")

Even if you ignore the question of noble vs planetary government, what does "feudal" even mean? Feudalism's distinguishing characteristics are not aristocracy. It is a form of government/social organization in which land ownership is delegated in return for military or other service. Are all the Imperial nobles just paying scutage? Because they aren't providing military service. In fact, those nobles are explicitly NOT in the chain of command of the military.

There simply isn't answers and has never been answers, which is why the longer we go on the more confused things get. It is an interesting thing to discuss, to tease out different threads so the individual GM can decide on what big picture they actually want. Everything about the government and the economics of Charted Space is an series of impressions. Shadows that have to be interpreted.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Then there is the question of who commands the Imperial Army and Navy? Is there civilian authority required for them to get involved or are individual fleet commanders only beholden to the admiralty and armies to the general staff?

Who decides when their !economic" intervention is needed? Who orders interdiction? Who declares mobilisation when the Zhodani invade?

Can a world noble command Imperial forces? A subsector duke?

 

[Condottiere]

You don't want to make it easy for a province to revolt.

So, the nobility likely influence policy, the sector duke executes, and the military take action.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The status of sector duke is another poorly explored concept.

As it is in the Spinward marches the sector duke is unaware of the Zhodani invasion for at least four weeks (assuming jump 6 courier making jumps every week) or more resonable 6 weeks. It then takes the same amount of time to send orders to the fleets. So you are looking at between an eight to twelve weeks to authorise IN assess, assuming it has to be the sector duke and the sector admiralty.

 

[Vormaerin]

You don't want to make it easy for a province to revolt.

So, the nobility likely influence policy, the sector duke executes, and the military take action.

The successful revolts in Imperium history didn't come from the Dukes. They came from the Sector/Grand Admirals. Though Arbellatra was also Duchess of Rhylanor... exactly how that worked isn't exactly clear. Was she the civilian Administrator of the Rhylanor Subsector at the same time she was the senior naval officer of the Domain of Deneb?

 

[Condottiere]

There are two aspects to consider.

Military force to create facts on the ground.

Ensuring that those facts have the appearance of (political) legitimacy.

 

[Sigtrygg]

How does that help decide who has authority to direct the Imperial military? Are you willing to wait three months to hear back from sector level? Or do you take action at the subsector level?
Or do the military just ignore the noble government officials and follow their standard orders?

 

[Condottiere]

1. In case of an incursion, you need the local authorities to react in a timely manner, so imperium has to be given to the regional Grand Moff to assemble and allocate resources to deal with it.

2. In case of a successful revolt, whether before or after the fact, it's easier to consolidate power and support from the vested interest groups, if it appears your claim to the throne seems legitimate.