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1. In case of an incursion, you need the local authorities to react in a timely manner, so imperium has to be given to the regional Grand Moff to assemble and allocate resources to deal with it.
The Imperium does not have Star Wars ranks, stick to the discussion for once. Are you talking about the subsector duke or the sector duke?
Are you suggesting the subsector duke can command regular Imperial forces in time of emergency? Who decides the emergency requirements have been met?

The sector duke for the Spinward Marches is too far away to react, in the eight to twelve weeks needed for orders to be sent I could have taken my entire Zhodani invasion force to Mora...
2. In case of a successful revolt, whether before or after the fact, it's easier to consolidate power and support from the vested interest groups, if it appears your claim to the throne seems legitimate.
I'm sorry I just don't understand this.
 
To try and minimize the chances of a successful revolt, you want to split civilian and military authority.

If you look at it from the complexity of a feudal monarchy, there are several sources for power and/or influence, including spiritual, religious, commercial, even lineage.

If you can combine these, revolts or rebellions become viable.

If the revolt eventually not only manages to obtain independence from the central authority, but, in fact, overthrows it and takes control of the entire political entity, legitimacy allows all other interest groups to passively accede to the change of government.

If you want an example, there would be Henry Bolingbroke's overthrow of Richard the Second: his father was the third son of Edward the Third, so you could call that a dynastic dispute, and while not everyone supported this, enough did, so opposition could be contained.
 
To try and minimize the chances of a successful revolt, you want to split civilian and military authority.
Agree, but with comms lag who gets to make the urgent decision, the fleet admiral or the local subsector duke? Or do they both sign off on it and share the fallout?
If you look at it from the complexity of a feudal monarchy, there are several sources for power and/or influence, including spiritual, religious, commercial, even lineage.
It's the comms lag that bothers me and the destruction that could take place before you get authority from on high.
If you can combine these, revolts or rebellions become viable.
So is the Imperium more concerned about external attack or internal dissent?
If the revolt eventually not only manages to obtain independence from the central authority, but, in fact, overthrows it and takes control of the entire political entity, legitimacy allows all other interest groups to passively accede to the change of government.
That doesn't help with how does the Imperium authorise its military to take action.
If you want an example, there would be Henry Bolingbroke's overthrow of Richard the Second: his father was the third son of Edward the Third, so you could call that a dynastic dispute, and while not everyone supported this, enough did, so opposition could be contained.
How is that relevant to who authorises the use of the Imperial military?
 
It hasn't "always been". LBB:4 Mercenary states it is only worlds on the frontier that have the gift of extensive home rule, the 7 Imperial Laws were fanon made canon by T$ contributors not Marc or anyone at GDW.

Correct, here's the quote, pg. 1:

On the frontiers, extensive home rule provisions allow planetary populations to choose their own forms of government, raise and maintain armed forces for local security, pass and enforce laws governing local conduct, and regulate (within limits) commerce.

It states "extensive home rule provisions", not independence, autonomy, or non-interference.
 
The very early Holy Roman Empire very slightly resembled that, where the Hereditary Dukes were the warlord/chiefs of the tribes (Dux of the Saxons, Dux of the Franconians, etc) while the Emperor appointed life time regional administrators (the Counts). It basically failed quite quickly, as the Dukes and Counts maneuvered to get authority over each other and the Counts rapidly became hereditary. Before long, they were essentially indistinguishable. The whole point of feudalism is to localize military authority and make it self supporting with land grants. But that is NOT what the Imperium is doing.

IMHO, this revolt prevention idea is a sidetrack. You are just making the Sector Admirals the locus of revolt rather than the Dukes. And it doesn't address the fact that the senior admirals are all nobles. So if nobles are actually governing things, then all the Admirals are also local government. Or you are assigning them to jobs far from where they are supposedly the government, so someone else is governing on their behalf?

The Imperium is trying to do this thing where the State Governors might have some national guardsmen, but the actual army & navy respond to the central government. But 1) that's not feudalism 2) it does not account for communications time, as Sygtrygg has been pointing out.

As usual, we have conflicting examples. Super Norris resigned from the military to take up his ancestral duties as Duke. Yet Arbellatra is Duchess of Rhylanor and Grand Admiral of the Marches. Charted Space has a problem where it can't decide if "Duchess of Rhylanor" is a civil service post or an honorific like "Duke of Wellington". It used to be that everything except Duke and Archduke was an honorific, but that's apparently not the case now.

The Imperial Navy sourcebook makes it seem like the Imperial Navy is basically autonomous and does whatever it wants and the Dukes just have their ability to wheedle or whine to the central command a year away as influence. The "anti revolt" measures seem to be "well, we just won't appoint a Sector Admiral or Grand Admiral in the periphery". Which is, again, exactly the opposite of what you want if your concern is any sort of external threat. It is pretty obvious the Imperium is not concerned with foreign wars, at least in the Marches & the Reach.

But it isn't just the military issue. Who makes treaties? Does Super Norris appoint the Ambassador to the Sword Worlds? Or does that person get sent from Capital? Are those Ambassadors plenipotentiary, as was often the case in ye olden days of low communications? If not, who do they communicate with to approve treaties? The nearest subsector duke? The sector duke (if there is one?) Some Foreign Office official as yet unmentioned? Or all the back to the Emperor? Can the Ambassador to the Sword Worlds tell the nearest Admiral "hey, we are at war with the Swordies. Could you blow them up pls?"

Resolving these matters in a comms lag environment is the point of feudalism. And the fact that they are not, in fact, addressed is why I think the Imperium is an aristocratic bureaucracy, not a any sort of feudalism.
 
Correct, here's the quote, pg. 1:

On the frontiers, extensive home rule provisions allow planetary populations to choose their own forms of government, raise and maintain armed forces for local security, pass and enforce laws governing local conduct, and regulate (within limits) commerce.

It states "extensive home rule provisions", not independence, autonomy, or non-interference.
As far as I can tell, the original vision was:

Planets have a local government that they can essentially organize themselves within limits. For example, it is as if Dresden could determine its own way to determine its Lord Mayor, while he Subsector Dukes were a regional government equivalent like states, like the Governor of Saxony. And the Imperium is the federal government of Germany. But we don't actually know the laws that delineate who is responsible for what. :D

But apparently it is difficult to accept that "feudalism" is a misnomer in talking about Charted Space, so authors have increasingly had difficulty accepting that titles other than Duke, Archduke, and Emperor are honors, not jobs. The original descriptions of Viscounts, Counts, etc was that their fiefs were scattered over multiple worlds, which was a common historical practice to (generally unsuccessfully) keep lords from consolidating local power. Was that the intent with Charted Space? It doesn't say.

Personally, I doubt that the Imperial government is appointing the planetary governments even in the Core. But I expect that if you have a wealthy, well connected family situated on a planet, they are going to do what wealthy well connected people generally do, which is leverage that into more and more local influence. So you end up with situations like the Marquis of Aramis. The fact that they are the most important oligarch on Aramis is not a du jure result of them being Marquis, but it almost certainly contributed heavily to their success in becoming the local leader.

But it is equally implausible that the Imperium is not maintaining sovereignty, levying taxes, and all that. Unless trade is just so extensive that levies on interstellar shipments fund it. And that is not in any way established by the setting either. The infrastructure just doesn't suggest that, even if you assume said levies are built into the pricing models we have (which are, after all, simplified to be usable in a game intended to be fun).

IMHO, the "home rule" provisions on the frontiers are allowing them significant planetary navies and tolerating a certain amount of interplanetary conflict that would not be tolerated in the core. The Imperium does not need or want planets in the Core to have their own navies. They do not have the strength or responsiveness to provide naval garrisons to all the worlds in the Marches, so they approve naval militias, essentially.
 
"Autonomy" means "the right to be independent." So, in practice one would necessarily imply the other.

But Third Imperium states "a large degree of autonomy" not "autonomy". This mean planetary governments are not completely autonomous, and therefore not independent.

And then the book states that worlds are "independent".

This is why I complain about Traveller lore inconsistencies, and I always will. With 2e and its updates, Mongoose's Traveller writers are starting anew, and I really wish they'd fix this kind of thing. I know, I know, if wishes were fishes, I'd get a lot more omega-3s.
 
Correct, here's the quote, pg. 1:

On the frontiers, extensive home rule provisions allow planetary populations to choose their own forms of government, raise and maintain armed forces for local security, pass and enforce laws governing local conduct, and regulate (within limits) commerce.

It states "extensive home rule provisions", not independence, autonomy, or non-interference.
Page 1 of what book
 
You know the more we talk about the more I realize it’s based on the United States. With the imperial government being effective the federal government with certain powers (the imperium laws, imperial navy, and Such) while the worlds are the states and have all the rest of the powers not given over to the imperium. Tho in this case unlike the US communication time keeps the power of the central imperium government limited (much less power creep) the nobility is the representative of the imperium government and have the power to enforced the imperium laws but unless they do something to gain power locally they are limited in scope. The world’s actual have a large amount of autonomy.

Now I’m talking the US constitution as it was originally written and intended, the federal government of the US has grown in power vastly
 
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No one has ever defined the Imperial government in any detail. There's very little information on how it works or who does what or how it interacts with member planets. And the vast majority of the flimsy details we have about that government are talking about a barely controlled fringe that's more than twice as far (in travel time) from the Imperial Core as India was from England in the the 1700s.

True, true, but the reading I've done for this thought-provoking discussion has given me enough clues to form a conclusion which I'm confident reflects the vision and intent of current MgT 2e canon.
 
You know the more we talk about the more I realize it’s based on the United States.
Yanks in space - wonderful.
With the imperial government being effective the federal government with certain powers (the imperium laws, imperial navy, and Such) while the worlds are the states and have all the rest of the powers not given over to the imperium.
Doesn't work. The government is a year away. The USA wouldn't function if it took a year to communicate a from DC to the frontier states. Imagine finding out the Japanese have attacked Pearl Harbour months after it has happened. Who commands the Navy to start a war?

Unless you are saying there are local representatives of the Imperial government, which means worlds don't rule themselves they do as they are told by the nobles. Local nobles at that, since the secter noble is a couple of months away and central government is a year away.
So we are back to the Imperial government either starting at the subsector level, the dukes making the decisions, or the nobles on the world making the decisions. The communication time is too great for higher authority to be consulted.
Tho in this case unlike the US communication time keeps the power of the central Imperium government limited (much less power creep) the nobility is the representative of the Imperium government and have the power to enforced the Imperium laws but unless they do something to gain power locally they are limited in scope.
It's almost a year, nearly two for communication to get from the Marches to Capital and back. The same is not true of the core sector. Core sector worlds are linked by a jump 6 communication network, so much more direct Imperial control can be maintained.

If the Marches had jump 6 comms much more direct control of the worlds of the Marches would be possible,
The world’s actual have a large amount of autonomy.
Limited to what the Imperium grants.
Now I’m talking the US constitution as it was originally written and intended, the federal government of the US has grown in power vastly
The constitution has no bearing on this discussion, the Imperium is a hereditary feudal autocracy.
 
The constitution has no bearing on this discussion, the Imperium is a hereditary feudal autocracy.
I agree with your overall argument, but I have to nitpick this. Feudal and autocracy don't go together. That's like Democratic Dictatorship. :D

Either the Emperor has absolute power and he is appointing viceroys to the provinces or the Emperor is a feudal monarch with vassals controlling the provinces through personal oaths and enfeoffment contracts spelling out mutual rights and obligations.

Does this really matter at the level of make believe we are dealing with here? No.... But, still. :D
 
True, true, but the reading I've done for this thought-provoking discussion has given me enough clues to form a conclusion which I'm confident reflects the vision and intent of current MgT 2e canon.
I wish I could agree, but I don't think the MgT model is any better explained or indeed suited to describing a feudal autocratic Imperium.

Could you add anything to your earlier post? It certainly is an interesting discussion.

Are the worlds of the Spinward Marches granted home rule provision more so than core worlds, or is the same level of autonomy common throughout the Imperium? Does any world really have autonomy?
If so why are Imperial nobles so much more common, if all they are doing is advising and or are acting as intermediaries with the subsector duke?

The Emperor and his government apparatus are 44 weeks away, 88 if you want a reply.

If local nobles can use the authority of the Emperor then how are local worlds anything but subservient to the whims of the local nobles?

Which level of nobility - world noble, subsector duke, sector duke - can authorise the use of the Imperial military or direct the activities of Imperial Ministries? or are the Military and Ministries beholden to Capital and thus must wait years for instructions?

The only system that has made any sense to me is that of the subsector duke being in effect the local emperor, able to direct military and ministry resources, but the sector duke gets to write reports to Capital that can either confirm or criticise the decissions of the subsector duke.

I even think it is a good idea for the sector duke to maintain a healthy amount of competition if not hostility between subsector dukes so none of them can replace the sector duke.

The sector duke can also countermand the orders of a subsector duke to the military or ministries (when they find out by which time it may be too late), but they better get the call right, as when the Emperor finally finds out what is going on there may be comeuppance.
 
I agree with your overall argument, but I have to nitpick this. Feudal and autocracy don't go together. That's like Democratic Dictatorship. :D

Either the Emperor has absolute power and he is appointing viceroys to the provinces or the Emperor is a feudal monarch with vassals controlling the provinces through personal oaths and enfeoffment contracts spelling out mutual rights and obligations.

Does this really matter at the level of make believe we are dealing with here? No.... But, still. :D
I know the dichotomy of describing it as such (and many would argue we live in a democratic dictatorship, certainly here in the UK at present)
It is feudal supposedly in that the Emperor empowers the dukes to act with whatever authority is granted them. They owe fealty to the Emperor.
The Emperor dose hold ultimate authority, able to hire and fire, and is nominal commander in chief.
Are the dukes viceroys, governors or made men...

The Emperor has to trust the competency and loyalty of his nobles. Any noble family that doesn't pass muster can easily be replaced...
 
I asked Copilot to explain it to me :)

"Let's break down "hereditary feudal autocracy" to understand its meaning:
  1. Hereditary: This means that power is passed down through family lines, typically from parent to child. Leadership positions are inherited rather than elected or appointed.
  2. Feudal: This refers to a system of government and society that was common in medieval Europe, where a hierarchy of lords and vassals existed. The lords owned the land and granted it to vassals in exchange for military service and loyalty. The society was structured around these land-based relationships and obligations.
  3. Autocracy: This is a form of government where one person has absolute power and authority. The autocrat makes all decisions and typically does not have to answer to any form of legislature or democracy.
So, when you describe a government as a "hereditary feudal autocracy," you're painting a picture of a political system where:
  • Leadership is passed down through family lines.
  • Society is structured around a hierarchy of lords and vassals, with land ownership and obligations.
  • One person holds absolute power and makes decisions unilaterally.
It's a blend of medieval feudalism and absolute monarchy, emphasizing family lineage and centralized control."
 
Your appointed rulers being aristocrats does not make it feudalism. Czarist Russia was an autocracy and all of its officials and military officers were titled nobles, but it wasn't feudal.

We could easily make it feudal, though. Solidify authority in with the Dukes. Stop faffing about with centralized bureaucracies like a Ministry of Justice, independent Navy, and all that. Empower the Moot. The Emperor is Archduke of Sylea and funds his household that way. The local Dukes spend the local taxes on law & order, defense, development, etc.

The death of feudalism is centralization and absolute power in the position of the monarch.

Your copilot quote looks neat, but "lords & vassals with land ownership & obligations" is a direct conflict with "absolute power and unilateral decisions".
 
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